March 16, 2015 at 8:19 pm #44228
For those road racing with the WKA please check the WKA website for a change in the dual brake requirements for several road race classes. Specifically Tag, Tag Heavy, Stock Leopard, Pro Gas Animal and Animal Limited Modified.
Have a good evening folks,
Clark Gaynor Sr.
WKC VP and Board member,
WKA NRRC member.
March 23, 2015 at 11:28 am #44651George SunderlandParticipant
So requirement was waived for Tag, Tag Heavy, Stock Leopard, Pro Gas Animal and Animal Limited Modified but not Clone??? Hardly makes sense.
March 31, 2015 at 7:35 am #45114Bob VehringParticipant
Sit up sprint Animal has to have dual brakes also, its the classes that are faster yet run in our group that don’t have to have them
If you look at the minutes, you will see the 2 Trustees that actually race this voted no, it was passed by the others
March 31, 2015 at 8:56 am #45126
As a Stock Leopard racer, I am for allowing single brake systems in our class. If a racer feels they need to have a dual system, they are still allowed to use it. Otherwise, a single system will work. IMO.
This ruling should have been broken down by the classes, as it seems the 4-Cycle racers do not favor this.
Karts are generally made with a single system. It has worked for years, and I don’t see why it can not be made an option to each single racer.
David Cole - EKN Managing Editor
March 31, 2015 at 11:04 am #45142Bob VehringParticipant
David, the issue really is a little deeper then that, or should be.
You are a life long road racer which gives you a bit of a different perspective then TaG racer who have only done small sprint tracks. For those not understanding this, enticing sprint people to the long tracks is what this is about
So lets be honest about this whole deal. Road Racing is different then sprint and ovals and a downside is sometimes, some people don’t make it home. If you were reading the other forum, you will see a list of questions, started by me but added to by others that should e asked or at least stated to make people aware of the differences. These questions were not only for Tag, but anyone coming over to a big track from a sprint background.
How often do you reach speed of over 100MPH?
Are you comfortable at that speed for between 1/2 mile and 3 miles at a time?
Are you ok at that speed with no run off room, walls or Armco at tracks edge?
Are you used to running with 50-100 other karts at the same time? Some much faster then you, some much slower?
There were more questions but I’m not digging for them now, must be 5 or 6 threads on Bob’s on this. The point here is simple again this gets sold to the voting trustees, most of which have little to no understanding of big tracks and only told this will help bring new entries, the rest is not explained to them. I have asked several time for WKA to address this, they choose not to.
A second issue I consider serious, I have asked and received no answer to is this. The dual brake rule came in in early 2000’s (?) as a result of a serious incident then. We, were told by WKA that this was needed to address serious safety issues and went in across the board. So my question is, after making that statement, and they now remove it in the name of gaining entries, if a serious incident did happen, lawyers became involved, what now is WKA’s liability? Were serious lawyers consulted on this before the vote? Again no answer.
David you were around for much of Road America. As that race grew, several changes had to be made to help with safety. First I wrote a 3 page paper available to all explaining the differences between Sprint and Road Racing, and yes there were people Bingo and I took off the track.
The second was, while the RWYB class served a needed class as a catch-all for people not fitting other classes, We had to eliminate it. As faster karts became common, Shifter and Tag back then, it became clear that more and more racers were using that class to put out friends, relatives, crew. in to equipment that far exceeded their talent. That made it unsafe for everyone out there.
I’ve spent 30 years in this sport, most of it doing promotion. I understand where were at here, but you never can put new entries ahead of safety
March 31, 2015 at 11:45 am #45144
First off, racing is dangerous no matter the speed, the venue or the type of kart. To state the ‘road racing’ is much more dangerous then sprint or oval is being blind. Racing in general is a risk, even as a solo driver in a parking lot. Walking down the street is a risk, flying a plane is a risk. That’s not the question here.
I’m really confused with your stance on this subject. You support a program that does NOT require dual brake systems, then when another program makes it an option, you feel they are not listening to their racers?
The WKA officiers, Board of Trustees, and hell, even most racers in 2000 when this rule was put in place are a lot different from now. Back then, there was not even a Stock Leopard class, or TaG class. Things change, and looking at lap times, we really haven’t gotten that much faster in the same karts after 15 years. So what’s to say we can’t change things now.
Road America and RWYB are completely unrelated to this topic.
We are looking at 5 categories, and changing the rules in which they follow. WKA is not TAKING away dual-brake system, they are just making it an option to not run dual-brake system.
The main issue we should be looking at is educating racers on the proper way to do things in the sport – driving, maintenance, etc.
At Roebling Road, a young driver who had never made a single lap in a kart, raced at a WKA National event. That is just wrong. It put that driver in danger, and the others in danger, and should never happen.
What is safe is getting people to learn about the sport first before taking them to places like Road America, Mid-Ohio, Daytona, and other big facilities. There are plenty of driving schools at the sprint tracks across the country. Hell, even learning to drive in a ‘rental kart’ is better then just throwing someone out into a pack of experienced drivers and saying ‘Go for it.’
Next, how about a real mechanical person doing safety tech, and making sure karts actually have the working components in place. I have been guilty of thinking my kart was ‘safe’, and went out and lost the steering shaft. Thankfully, I nor anyone else was not hurt. But that goes to show you, Safety Tech NEEDS to be done by a professional, not the person who volunteers to put stickers on a kart.
I love this sport, and always will. The last three months have really made me question why. People continue to think one direction is the only direction to go, otherwise, it’s wrong. Well, it’s not. Karting is as diverse as the world. So many different types and forms, and there is not one single format that you can follow that will cover them all. In this topic, it should really come down to what the driver wants, and feels comfortable knowing what they can do.
David Cole - EKN Managing Editor
March 31, 2015 at 12:05 pm #45147James McMahonParticipant
David, lot of sensible things in that post.
April 1, 2015 at 2:35 pm #45252Jeff SalakParticipant
Ill keep the front brakes on in Tag when Im Road racing. Doesn’t matter what series or whatever. Any new chassis I buy, will always have front brakes. I finish 99% of my races and not much ever fails, BUT IF IT DOES. I want them on.
Ive lost friends and others had flight for life lift them away not knowing if they are going to make it. For me to stay in the sport of road racing. It was/is a no brainer! The xtra $1000 when you purchase it from the start is nothing if you don’t make it home.
April 2, 2015 at 11:48 am #45299
You hit the nail on the head when you mentioned that driver’s hit the track with no experience in a kart let alone have a clue how to maintain it!!! HELL, we have experienced driver’s with the same issues!!!!! Talking about maintenance, I’ve seen some karts that if they just cleaned there karts would be a start!!! Amazing what you might find when you clean the dirt and grease off.
Something I wish more organizations did what KART and possibly others do and that is, we have what we call a NOVICE SCHOOL first thing after the driver’s meeting on Saturday morning for those with 3 or less road races that they must participate and pass before they are allowed to practice and/or race the remaining of the weekend. And YES, we have had a few that didn’t get back onto the track after the novice school!!! There are things we cover in a meeting then we have experienced qualified driver’s lead & tail them for several laps beginning pretty slow then building speed. When they come in, the experienced driver’s talk to both the driver’s and race directors of there findings. In most cases the new driver’s are given some pointers in which they appreciate very much.
As for this brake thing, IMO it seems to me that several are asking “why some sprint classes have to have dual brake systems and some are only required”. KART REQUIRES ALL karts up to 100cc Open (both sprint & laydown) to have dual brake systems in road racing. Under 100cc Open, it’s an option. I have my own opinion rather ALL karts should or not have dual brake systems. Brakes are made for stopping but have nothing to do with DRIVING SKILLS.
Don’t ANYONE take this wrong!!! Why don’t ALL SPRINT classes run the SPRINT rules?? Other words, no full bodies & standard sit-up seat as examples like we used to and they still do at the sprint track, WE used to!!!! Here is the MAIN reason some of our sprint classes that allow this are going much faster then years ago.
April 2, 2015 at 4:41 pm #45319alan brasherParticipant
was around when duel brakes were needed for road racing, and know why, spent 600 for front brakes, was around when tethers were needed, and know why !!. was at mid-ohio, someone spun out in front of us took out four karts, the guy who spun out said he was never in a kart like that, x on helmet start them in back !! big field.. was wka g.n. yam. pipe enduro, wanted to beat his blank, lol..he lost it it in the esses before key hole, did not make one lap..so wtf,…all i know is i feel better with that brake set up, and wouldent race with out it,.. cant believe we ran all those years with out it…good old days..crazy i guess..lol..
April 2, 2015 at 9:20 pm #45335Walt GiffordParticipant
So glad I got out of road racing it really is much more dangerous than short track. Anyone who doesn’t run a double braking system in road race has their head up and locked.
FAA certified jet engine and aircraft technician,
Nicholson Speedway class champion 2001,
Yamaha KT100 Service Center,
41 years karting experience
April 3, 2015 at 6:25 am #45357
People, again, no one is telling you to take away your dual brake system. This is telling people you have the option…and it’s only for the five classes listed. All the rest of the categories are left alone.
David Cole - EKN Managing Editor
April 3, 2015 at 10:30 am #45366Debbie KuntzeParticipant
Two thumbs up and like for David and Kelly.
I have always supported the option-since the 90’s and butted heads to allow it with organizations. If what the driver has on and it is working and they are comfortable racing that way-then so be it.
And it REALLY irks me when people say Road Racing is more dangerous than other forms of kart racing. I did over 10 years as a race director and flew the red ONCE, for a flip that the driver got up from and apologized for being an idiot. No other karts were involved. Now how many times in one race weekend do the majority of the sprint race directors/flagmen have to throw a red? But then I am extremely aggressive with the black flag.
April 8, 2015 at 12:07 pm #45715Sean SParticipant
I checked under Tech Updates, but it just referred to pg.43 of the tech manual. I’ve been confused by the meaning of “dual braking system”. David, I was actually talking with your father about this at Grattan at last years closed test event. I’m running a Leopard with a stock Tony rear brake system, but it has 2 master cylinders, one for each side of the caliper/piston/pad. Wouldn’t that be dual braking system for redundancy? I’ve read a lot of the safety stories, the racing advantages/disadvantages, etc. I would love to throw a set of fronts on knowing I have that extra stopping power, but $1000+ is ridiculous for just front brakes concerting that amount of money is almost half of the cash for 2 year old roller!(so if anyone has a set they are selling let me know) I just wanted to chime in get a YES/NO answer on what the current setup I have qualifies as.
Tony Kart / Leopard
April 8, 2015 at 12:20 pm #45717
355.2 in the WKA 2015 Rulebook.
“Dual brake systems are composed of two redundant and independent sets of components including master cylinders and calipers.”
That means, you need to have two separate master cylinders and at least two separate calipers.
Your system does not fall under that. If you had a second rear caliper on the brake disc, with the second master cylinder going to that, it would be legal.
David Cole - EKN Managing Editor
April 8, 2015 at 1:51 pm #45728
Actually David it does meet the requirement. If you read a little further down in paragraph 355.2 of the 2015 WKA Tech Manual it says “Dual rear brakes may also use one caliper as long as the calipers are connected to separate master cylinders and the caliper sides are not hydraulically connected to each other”. It starts on the seventh line of the paragraph.
It’s not very well worded, but that’s what it says. In all the years I’ve been doing safety tech for the WKC, I’ve only ever seen this on a couple karts. They were always Tags with older style “shimmed” rear calipers. I was never a big fan of that setup, but it does work and I never heard of anyone having a problem with them.
Hope that helps,
Clark Gaynor Sr.
April 9, 2015 at 12:09 pm #45782
Here is something to think about for those running dual REAR systems.
Rather you have one caliper with two master cylinders OR two calipers with separate master cylinders on a SINGLE rear disc, what good is either if you brake a disc?? (seen this more then once including at sprint tracks)!!!!! Wouldn’t having one rear and fronts vs two rear systems give us a better chance of getting slowed down and stopped if this happens let alone better control of the kart??
April 10, 2015 at 5:54 am #45811Greg WrightParticipant
I have to agree with Debbie Kuntze, and take issue with Gif’s statement about road racing being “much more dangerous than short track”.
This is a statement that I’ve heard from many kart racers that have never given road racing a shot. While there’s no question that the speeds are much higher the number of incidents is much, much lower. Have people lost there lives road racing? Unfortunately yes, but most ignore the fact that there have been fatalities and crippling injuries on sprint tracks, street races (maybe the highest number of incidents), and oval tracking.
Racing is dangerous, always has been and always will be. I road raced almost exclusively for over 30 years. Did I ever crash? Absolutely, did I ever get injured? A few times.
When business demands forced me to give up the traveling that road racing requires I went sprint racing for a few years. In four years time I had more crashes, tore up more equipment, and had more injuries including a more or less career ending one during that time than I did in 30+ years of roadracing.
Rapid Racing Inc.
Vintage B-Stock Pilot
"When in doubt Gas it, It won't help but it ends the suspense."
April 10, 2015 at 7:36 am #45820
Everyone posting here has some very good observations and feelings. I’m also a Leopard road racer as is my son, and we both run 4 wheel brakes. I personally wouldn’t be without them, but that is NOT for safety reasons, it’s for performance reasons! You can obviously go into a turn much farther and slow the thing down straighter then with rear brakes only. IMHO.
I completely trust my brakes and would have no issues at all with a single rear brake. If you are uncomfortable with a single system, then by all means run the second system. NO ONE is telling you that you can ONLY run a single brake in any class!!!! That is NOT what the new rules say. And it only effects 5 classes. ALL of the current “Sprint Enduro” and laydown classes are completely unaffected by this change.
It’s also obvious why these classes were changed. They are the true WKA ManCup and GoldCup classes which can cross over to road racing the easiest. Change the gear and go! The only exception to that is the Limited Modified class, which simply allows the Gold Cup Pro Gas karts another class to run each day. That’s it. No hidden agendas, no politics!
These changes were authored, discussed, and approved by ALL seven members of WKA’s NRRC before the trustees ever saw them. Those members included reps from SKC, DKC and the WKC. Four cycle reps (one of which authored the Pro Gas and LM rule), Tag rep (who authored the Tag and Leopard rules), a shifter/Unlimited rep, and three members from the laydown world. Very group and engine type are represented in this committee. And the rules were approved by the trustees with a vote of 8 to 2 as I recall. And as a note of interest, the trustees requested we change the brake requirements for single brake systems. This was to eliminate the possibility of someone running some little tinny brake setup in road racing. This is something we never thought of.
I know this seems like a bit of a rant, so please don’t take it the wrong way. You folks on this forum have been very professional with your input and thoughts. It is truly appreciated.
Please keep your inputs coming. They are important to us.
And here’s one. Totally off subject. In GoldCup and Mancup there are many junior (12-15 YO) and sportsman (8-12 YO) classes. Any thoughts on road race classes for the same age groups? Pro Gas Sportsman/Jr, Yamaha Sportsman/Jr, Jr Tag? Sprint chassis’ only? Thoughts?
Have a good day folks,
Clark Gaynor Sr.
WKA NRRC member, WKC VP and Board member.
April 10, 2015 at 11:37 am #45831
KART has a SPRINT TAG CADET (8-11) and have had it for 7-8 years. In 2013 and 2014, we experimented with a SPRINT TAG JR (12-15) as a local option class and still have it as a L.O. class. The racers in these two classes have shown that they can run on road race tracks. This year we are adding a SPRINT B&S LO206 JR (8-12) class at a couple of our events to see how it goes. These classes run sprint chassis, none or CIK or Schribner bodywork with the standard bucket seat. I’m guessing it will be a success also considering that all the driver’s so far have come from a sprint track and have some driving experience which is a great plus!!
Keep in mind as for track time, we give them (alone) 2-15 minute practice sessions each day and also have them participate in our novice session that starts right after the Saturday morning driver’s meeting. As for there race, we run the youngsters with our Animal sportsman classes (old folks) to keep them out of the way of the faster karts which goes good. On the two events of where our third JR class will be running, we will be adding 1 – 30 minute race each day to the schedule and put all the JRs in it. Of course we do adjust there entry fee as they don’t get as much track time as everyone else.
We also have what we call YAMAHA 4 HOLE CAN for 12-up that has different chassis and weights that runs 45 minutes. This class was developed for those wanting to run a two stroke who are new to the sport and those wanting to move up. This class has also been a success. Great stepping stone for the younger and those older driver’s getting into the sport.
April 11, 2015 at 6:35 am #45873
Thanks for the junior info Kelly.
April 13, 2015 at 10:13 am #45963George SunderlandParticipant
In the past 42 years I’ve raced karts on dirt, in streets, on ice, indoors, on ovals, road courses, 4 stroke, 2 stroke, enduro, sprint and Superkart. Here’s my take on what form is most “dangerous”. By far, I’ve seen the most frequent accidents and broken bones on dirt ovals followed closely by sprint short road courses and street races. Accidents are much more rare in enduro racing (what folks now call “road racing”). However, although accidents on long road courses are much rarer than other forms of karting, the consequences are much more severe when they do occur. In my time, I’ve known 5 people who were killed in kart racing accidents. All were killed racing the big tracks. I know countless guys who were broken up and some permanently crippled from crashes and flips on the small sprint tracks. That said, I do believe standard braking systems are fine with all 4 cycles and the slower 2 cycle classes. And I think there’s little doubt about the fact that the veasier you make it for people to run the equipment they have without buying new stuff, the more liekly they will join us. The most important thing we can do for safety is to make the knuckleheads take a timeout when they act up and remind everyone its all just for a trophy. I am far more afraid of an idiot with 4 wheel brakes than a level headed guy with standard brakes. Everyone must remember, nobody outside our small gorup will ever know or care who won. As long as we keep our heads road racing can be reasonably safe.
April 13, 2015 at 10:18 am #45964
Very good observation George!
Thanks, Clark Sr.
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