When did the ICC's hit the karting scene .?

[Bob Baldwin]

My mind is a little “Foggy” can someone let me know WHEN ,WHERE , and BY WHO introduced the ICC motors to the USA Karting scene . Also WHERE have they gone since then ?

[Thomas Barth]

The TM (ICC) was brought into the U.S.A. by TM Racing USA. in approximately 2000. The TM (and other ICC’s) are still in the U.S. and is very much alive and well. I do service on many and am keeping busy. At local tracks the ICC and moto run together to complete the shifter class. On a national or regional basis the Spec Honda has pretty much taken over on the sprint track. In the mid west where long track is popular there are more ICC’s in the field. The east coast is very well represented with the ICC now referred to as KZ.

[Howie Idelson]

I remember running an ICC in 1998/99. JC Waterhouse of Motomo had them and was promoting them.

 

[Bob Baldwin]

I am beginning to think that Howie and Tom are both correct . I was thinking that the ICC’s were started as a West Coast Thing and expanded Eastward after a few years . Tom the name TM Racing does ring a bell . Don’t recall when “Wally” picked up the Pavesi line . Also can’t remember if I read about them in Rob’s SKI publication or KartSport Magizine Also forgot who published that also.

Seems as though Open Moto and ICC’s were priced close to each other then the Opens began a decline and the SPEC honda crept in .

Not sure of the popularity of the “Other Brands ” of ICC motors just seem like on the forums the last 5-6 years anytime the topic is brought up the discussion always relates to either Pavesi or TM and with Wally gone is there any one ele importing the Pavesi line ?

Howie beside the 2 brands I mentioned what else are you seeing ICC wise on your side of the country ?

Tom : I am curious If you don’t mind my asking How many other brands are you seeing or servicing at your shop ?

[Dan Davis]

I believe Wallen Racing (Wally’s wife Lenora and son Buddy) still imports & services Pavesi but I’m not certain how active they are right now. I think Wally started working with Pavesi in the early 90’s.   If I am not mistaken,  those were the FC rotary valve versions.

[Howie Idelson]

There aren’t many anymore but of the ones I see it’s TM and Maxter That’s about it. Probably just like the rest of the world.

[Keith Bridgeman]

SKUSA started ICC’s in 2002 as an introductory class in the promoto tour.    I know that JM racing was pushing the Tony Kart , Vortex combo at the time.    Seems like in the first years all the way up to Stars of Tomorrow it was all about TM, Pavesi and CRS.  CRS died off pretty quickly after Hurricane Racing closed.    Now like Howie said its pretty much TM and Maxter.     On the world scene TM, Maxter, IAME, Modenas, Vortex all get entries with TM still being half the grids.

http://bridgemanbroskarting.blogspot.com/

[Keith Bridgeman]

I wonder is Pavesi still making new engines?   And if so have they changes at all since 2000.

http://bridgemanbroskarting.blogspot.com/

[Bob Baldwin]

keith : Well that must be saying TM’s are pretty GOOD if 1/2 the european fields are running them .

by the way WHAT EVER happened to Hurricane Racing they seemed to be quite strong for 5-6 years then literally vanished . Somehow I think they got bought out ?

Occasionally when I was looking at European Karting Forums they always mention Vortex along with the Tony Karts

[Thomas Barth]

Hi Bob,

I have done, TM, Vortex, Maxter, Pavesi, CRS and Seven. There might be another one in there but can’t think of any. I believe Hurricane (Canada) handled CRS but I don’t know what happened to them.

I believe Brian Wilhelm may have something to do with Pavesi too.

 

My gut feeling is Pavesi is out. Reason, don’t see anything on the European scene.

[Bob Baldwin]

Tom: I know what you are saying . Use to seeing results listed as :

Tony Kart /vortex /vega

Crg /Maxter / Vega

birel /TM / vega

ETC

Wish they would show results that way over here .

[Brian Wilhelm]

New Pavesi’s and parts are still readily available. Jean Marcioni (JM Racing) started importing Pavesi’s in about 1989. Wally picked it up in 1992 or 1993. Lenora and Buddy are still in business, and I am also. I’m pretty sure I’m the only stocking Pavesi dealer, and I do service a lot of Pavesi’s.

The motors were revised in about 2004, and then again in about 2008-ish. Most parts are interchangeable.

[Tim Blaney]

Bob, ICC’s make their big push in US sprint kart racing at the national level around 2002 when people grew tired of getting their asses kicked by SwedeTech Hondas.  At the time, the mantra was they could be run box-stock, on pump gas and it would put and end to $5000 engines.  It all turned out to be  a load of crap.  Engine builders quickly found ways to make more power so you still needed built engines, they ran race gas and they ended up being more than $5000.  And in the end SwedeTech dominated ICC just as they did moto.

As I recall Paul Leary had some good Pavesis, Italian Motors were good TMs.  Swetech started out with CRS, then did Pavesis, then Maxter and finally TMs.

 

TB

[Thomas Barth]

Tim Blaney said

Engine builders quickly found ways to make more power so you still needed built engines, they ran race gas and they ended being more than $5000.00.

Maybe, maybe not…there is not much that can be done to the KZ by a tuner because of the homologation specs. Your best bet is buying the factory upgrade. The $5000.00 price tag is about right but you will pay $5000.00 for a competitive spec Honda too.

I am talking U.S. racing not international.

[Bob Baldwin]

Tim: Thanks for PARTIALLY clearing my MIND . The name Paul leary crept into it BUT I could NOT figure out WHY ?

I can’t imagine WHAT the COST would be TODAY comparing a “BUILT ” Moto engine against a “BUILT ” ICC Motor ?

Also was this at the PEAK of the Karting World when Darren Elliot “CRG” and Alex Baron “Tony Kart” were at the TOP of their Game ? Seems like Scott Speed was in there with them ,but as my FEEBLE mind recalls he was CHANGING karting brands every few months .? I’m sure I am leaving out many names during that era .

I was also wondering if you compared USA $$$ against Euro $$$ if the guys across the pond are paying the same type of $$$’s that the USA karters are willing to pay ?

I am NOT knocking any of the “PRO ” builders their products SPEAK for themselves . But during this 3-4 year period I also recall hearing for the first time of CERTAIN builders offering “LEASED ” motors for CERTAIN events . Of course that depended on what kind of “DEAL ” they were on .

[Bob Baldwin]

TOM: Can you take a moment to explain an UPGRADED FACTORY DEAL ?

Also WHAT differences are there between USA and INTERNATIONAL RACI

TIM: I’m still APPALED by your comment that : ” IT ALL TURNED OUT TO BE A LOAD OF CRAP ” lol !!!

[Brian Wilhelm]

<div class=”d4p-bbp-quote-title”>Tim Blaney wrote:</div>
Bob, ICC’s make their big push in US sprint kart racing at the national level around 2002 when people grew tired of getting their asses kicked by SwedeTech Hondas. At the time, the mantra was they could be run box-stock, on pump gas and it would put and end to $5000 engines. It all turned out to be a load of crap. Engine builders quickly found ways to make more power so you still needed built engines, they ran race gas and they ended up being more than $5000. And in the end SwedeTech dominated ICC just as they did moto. As I recall Paul Leary had some good Pavesis, Italian Motors were good TMs. Swetech started out with CRS, then did Pavesis, then Maxter and finally TMs. TB

 

Tim, not so much a load of crap. It pretty much happens that way in every “spec” class. That’s why so many good ideas for “equalizer” classes, (Yamaha, moto, ICC, stock moto, TaG) soon turn out to be the most expensive class to run. It’s simply the natural progression.

[Bob Baldwin]

Brian: OH YES NATURAL PROGRESSION !!!

AND ON THE 7th DAY THE GOOD LORD GAVE US “TAG” CLASSES

MAKES YOU WONDER WHERE ROTAX WILL BE 10 YEARS FROM NOW .

[Thomas Barth]

Bob,

 

TM offers a package that includes:

tuned cylinder

SKF roller bearings  (or)

hybrid ceramic ball bearings

22mm crankshaft

polished 30mm carburetor

carbon fiber silencer 

special connecting rod for 20mm crank

I’m sure the other makes off similar packages.

 

Tim, not so much a load of crap. It pretty much happens that way in every “spec” class. That’s why so many good ideas for “equalizer” classes, (Yamaha, moto, ICC, stock moto, TaG) soon turn out to be the most expensive class to run. It’s simply the natural progression.

Amen Brian!

Again, the beauty of KZ is you get what you pay for. If you want to go faster pay more money

 

Also note that KZ internationally (outside North America) use super soft tires in championship races. A KZ race on the international scene is an awesome race to watch.

 

[Bob Baldwin]

Tom: Thanks for the comments . Not sure what brand or compounds they use but the KZ’s do put on a heck of a race VERY INTENSE EVENT

[Tim Blaney]

Sorry Brian, I have to disagree.  When I was working for SKI, I remember sitting at the Las Vegas Karting Center interviewing one of the founders of the Stars of Tomorrow – which later became Stars of Karting.  In extolling the virtues of the ICC he said you could be competive with them out of the box, run them on pump gas and you wouldn’t have to spend $5000 to get one.  Sorry but each and every one of those selling points that people at the time bought hook, line and sinker turned out to be completely untrue at the national level.  If you didn’t have a built ICC – and in the early days Leary, SwedeTech, Italian Motors and SRA were all building good motors for SKUSA/ Stars – you didn’t have a prayer.  Because they were built, pump gas wasn’t an option.  Because the builders needed to make a living you were paying $5,000 almost straight away.

IMO, that makes the selling features a load of crap.  You may interpret it differently.

[Keith Bridgeman]

Tim, it would have been true if they would have left the engines stock.  They are perfectly fine out of the box.  I know because I bought by first CRS in 02 to race the SKUSA protour.  It was great that way.  Its not the engines fault that we must send them to an engine builder to work it up and add $3000 to the price tag.   But thats they way  it worked out, just like built moto and now even stock moto.    The engine builders will always have there chance to make the engine better and good for them, they need work to.

http://bridgemanbroskarting.blogspot.com/

[Bob Baldwin]

Keith and Tim : In both your last postings you bring up EXCELLENT POINTS . One only has to ask ” WHEN WAS THE LAST TIME AN [ OUT OF THE BOX ] Motor WON A NATIONAL EVENT ” ?

Sadly the same type of thinking was transposed over to the TAG world Leopard ,Rotax etc; Spirit and Intent as we are seeing today is pretty much OUT the WINDOW

folks still wonder WHY there remains a BIG TURNOVER in Karting !!!

[Brian Wilhelm]

<div class=”d4p-bbp-quote-title”>Tim Blaney wrote:</div>
Sorry Brian, I have to disagree. When I was working for SKI, I remember sitting at the Las Vegas Karting Center interviewing one of the founders of the Stars of Tomorrow – which later became Stars of Karting. In extolling the virtues of the ICC he said you could be competive with them out of the box, run them on pump gas and you wouldn’t have to spend $5000 to get one. Sorry but each and every one of those selling points that people at the time bought hook, line and sinker turned out to be completely untrue at the national level. If you didn’t have a built ICC – and in the early days Leary, SwedeTech, Italian Motors and SRA were all building good motors for SKUSA/ Stars – you didn’t have a prayer. Because they were built, pump gas wasn’t an option. Because the builders needed to make a living you were paying $5,000 almost straight away. 

IMO, that makes the selling features a load of crap. You may interpret it differently.

At the national level, unless it’s an engine that you draw for and then put on your kart for that day, there is no way that’s not going to happen. Like I said, it’s the natural progression. The idea of ANY class that’s proposed as spec “out of the box, you can’t change anything”, is flawed. It simply turns into the most expensive class to run, every time.

When the ICC thing was just getting rolling, I was pretty surprised folks bought into it being “out of the box”…….

[Tim Pappas]

I was involved in the discussions with the STARS founders about changing to ICC.  While the topic of “take it out of the box and race it” was bantered about I don’t think any of the racers really bought into it.  The biggest thing was that STARS wanted to be aligned internationally.  At issue for the racers was the perception that if they didn’t buy or rent a Swedish Honda they couldn’t be competitive and even if they did there was a level of engine that was only available to a fortunate few.  There were teams that stopped going to the races because of this.

When STARS talked about going ICC all these teams jumped on the bandwagon not because they thought you could run an out of the box engine, but because it took the perceived moto ignition hi jinx out of the picture and seemingly leveled the playing field.  They found out that the Swede was a pretty smart guy and continued to build winning engines, but other engine builders had more success than with moto with the simpler rules package.  I’m too lazy to go back and look at lap times, but I would say the racing was closer in the ICC days.

The moto days were more expensive, but definitely more fun.  ICC was cool because they were true kart engines and it created more opportunity to go race in Europe.  The problem with both is that the lines get blurred between the national and local level.  Driving and chassis is generally going to win at the local level, but all it took is for one guy (that would win anyway) to start winning at the local track with a “national” level engine and it blows the class apart.  Karts get parked and the local Sea Doo dealer just picked up another sale.

 

[Keith Bridgeman]

Tim, can you please stop using real historical facts and common sense in your responses.   What a drag, no one wants to hear that crap.

http://bridgemanbroskarting.blogspot.com/

[Paul Makarucha]

What Tim meant to say was that Honda paid X companies to create the ICCs. Full well knowing cost of tuning them up will skyrocket, then inceptioning america (SKUSA) to put some of their old stock of honda parts together to make Stock Moto.

GENIUS!

That should keep this discussion lively for a while.

[Bob Baldwin]

come on Paul tell us WHAT you really MEAN 

[Thomas Barth]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KZ1_(karting)

Some more info on KZ.

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