Home Forums Shifter Karts Stock Moto vs ICC (KZ) .. Which to choose and why?

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    • #8697
      Derek Lodato
      Participant

      This has been a HOT topic for many years already but I want to get your perspective on what you feel is better and why?

      Please respond by answering questions surrounding

      1. Performance (Is ICC KZ a better performing engine or does Stock Moto outshine it?)

      2. Maintenance (What are typical maintenance costs with Stock Moto vs ICC and how long can you typically run each engine without having to replace something?)

      3. Cost (Which cost more and is the added expense worth it?)

      4. If cost wasn’t an issue which would you prefer just based on sheer performance?

      5. If you chose ICC/KZ which manufacturer would you suggest?

      6. Is the ICC/KZ class still popular in your area of the country?

       

      I’ll soon be looking for an engine package and I’m not yet sold on either Stock Moto or ICC\KZ. From what I have read there are good things about both but I want to hear from you guys about why you like one over the other.

      There’s tons of contradictions about one vs the other but I am trying to get good honest feedback based on your actual experiences.

      Thank you in advance for your input and responses.

       

    • #8699
      Brian Wilson
      Participant

      This is from my standpoint living in central Florida. I tend to see more stock motos than ICC’s….but I believe that may be a regional thing. As far as cost goes, that depends upon how competitive you want to be. Sure, you can run and ICC out of the box, but I believe most of the competitive guys put the upgrade kit on them that cost more. As far as run time  and performance, I have never run an ICC. With the stock moto, again it depends upon how competitive you are. There are guys that do top end rebuilds every 1-2 races, but I think you should be able to get 10 hours out of one. Some will say the cost of a rebuild is not worth chancing it and having it come apart at hour 5-10 and doing more damage.

       

      As I said, I have never driven an ICC so I have no experience with one. But it pretty much holds true with any motor, the more competitive you are (or want to be), the higher your cost are going to be.

    • #8765
      Thomas Barth
      Participant

      Derek,

      I will try to answer the questions you pose with some degree of authenticity. I have serviced the KZ (ICC) shifter engine for approximately 13 years. Yes, I am biased toward the KZ.

      1. Performance (Is ICC KZ a better performing engine or does Stock Moto outshine it?)

      YES!, the KZ is a bona fide kart shifter engine. It will out perform the spec moto.  That’s why moto has it’s own class.

      2. Maintenance (What are typical maintenance costs with Stock Moto vs ICC and how long can you typically run each engine without having to replace something?)

      I am not familiar with the stock moto but I believe it should be a fairly low maintenance. Maintenance schedule will depend on hours/gallons of fuel put through engine. Example – a KZ lower end  bearing (rod) will need replacing after approximately 55 gallons of fuel. A piston in a kZ will go for 10 to 15 gallons, (pistons are amazingly sturdy components), change ring / bearing and keep on ‘truckin’.

      3. Cost (Which cost more and is the added expense worth it?)

      If the stock moto is assembled as specified by SKUSA rules then the cost will be in the neighborhood of 3K. Remember a spec moto is a conglomeration of Honda engine parts with out sourced accessories (pipe, mount etc.)

      The KZ comes as a complete package including pipe, silencer, carb etc. The cost for a new KZ10B – 5K. Yes, there is a cost difference favoring the moto but than again we comparing apples to oranges. If you have driven a moto but not the KZ, the difference  in performance will help you make up your mind.

      4. If cost wasn’t an issue which would you prefer just based on sheer performance?

      See above.

      5. If you chose ICC/KZ which manufacturer would you suggest?

      All KZ makes available in U.S. are very good. TM is probably most prevalent today.

      6. Is the ICC/KZ class still popular in your area of the country?

      My area of the country is the Great Lakes region. For us the venue is pretty much Road Racing.  I can attend  5 different road racing course in my region. My guess is that a typical event, the moto/KZ  attendance is roughly 50/50.

      You will need to be aware of the tracks in your area and what classes they offer. If there is a shifter class, chances are it includes KZ’s. One thing to remember is the U.S. is a very large in geographical area compared to Europe (KZ’s). Unless you have a major track near you it might be slim pickin’s trying to find a suitable venue near enough to participate regularly..

      As I said, I am definitely pro KZ. My devotion to KZ comes partly from my engineering background, from ease of maintenance and the awesome performance of the KZ shifter kart. I cannot truthfully say that the KZ is cheaper than the moto from a service standpoint. I have never done a cost comparison. Considering that the moto ( CR125) is no longer in production Even though the Honda supporters rave about the endless supply of parts left over from the manufacture of motocross bikes and I still have a problem with no factory support such as design changes that improve reliability, performance and service. Remember, what you see is what you get, forever.

      Just callin’ it the way I see it. I’m sure there will be retaliation.

       

    • #8775
      Steen Carstensen
      Participant

      Tom, you need to do some more traveling outside the US of A. I know everything is bigger and better in America, but one thing it is not, is bigger than Europe. Check the facts, and you will find that Europe is in fact bigger.
      Just saying

    • #8852
      Ray Lovestead
      Participant

      Steen – I think Tom is simply referring to the distances needed to travel to get to tracks.  We do in fact have a lower population density than Europe (84 people/sq. mile vs France at 289 or Germany at 609)

      Derek – best advice, find your local track(s), talk to the other drivers.  In my area (Denver) I have seen ZERO modern ICC engines.  You run across the occasional Pavesi.  But then if you want to race shifter class, only one option, CR125.

      Ray

       

      "Karting Expert Since 2015"

    • #8865
      Chris Reinhardt
      Participant

      This couldn’t possibly turn out bad…..  :)

      Derek, to answer all of questions accurately, depends on who you ask.  They are very subjective, and that’s why ALL of these discussions end badly…

      CR

      Chris Reinhardt

      CR2 Motorsports

      http://www.cr2motorsports.webs.com/

      XV Racing Products

      http://www.xvengineering.com/

      ­­

    • #8896
      Brian Degulis
      Participant

      It’s always subjective but facts are still facts. Is the CR125 out of production as Tom states? I thought Honda was still producing them for karts?

      Brian

    • #8923
      Carl Beavers
      Participant

      Just finishing a Kosmic Lynx 32mm chassis with a Stock Moto, 1999 CR125, so this topic is very fresh for me. Here are my thoughts:

      1. Chose the stock moto because it is a popular class in the Northwest.

      2. The Kosmic Shifter chassis is designed for the ICC package and fitting a stock moto is more work. Many times I almost switched to the ICC rather than continue the fitting of the moto engine where it was not intended.

      3. Stock Moto parts are cheaper, a lot cheaper.

      4. The Stock Moto seems to be a very durable package and a little easier to tune.

      Have not been to the track yet with the new kart, still sorting it out. Hoping all the work will be worth it. Would I do it again? Not sure – installing the ICC would have been a lot easier.

    • #8924
      Troy V Smith
      Participant

      Chris Reinhardt wrote: This couldn’t possibly turn out bad…..

      Too funny! Ding, Ding….round two!

      Guess we missed Jimmys post?

      http://ekartingnews.com/forums/topic/stock-honda-is-better-than-kz/

      Around here it’s tough to find anything other than a stock moto – but we see them, just not real popular.  I don’t believe there is an issue with “OOP” CR125’s.  Yea though – I guess the 1999 cr125 could be considered out of production in 2000.  From what I understand, Honda retains all dies, molds, templates and such to continue to manufacture 99′ CR125 parts,  and with HRD now actively participating in larger karting events – I seriously doubt availability of anything would be an issue – not anywhere in the near future anyway.  I’ve blown up allot of stuff (only caused by mechanic issues – me) and never had an issue with acquiring proper replacements.

      We may not be the fastest on the track...but we're having the most fun!
      https://www.facebook.com/wearekarters

    • #8930
      Chris Reinhardt
      Participant

      <div class=”d4p-bbp-quote-title”>Troy V Smith wrote:</div>

      Chris Reinhardt wrote: This couldn’t possibly turn out bad…..

      Too funny! Ding, Ding….round two! Guess we missed Jimmys post? http://ekartingnews.com/forums/topic/stock-honda-is-better-than-kz/ Around here it’s tough to find anything other than a stock moto – but we see them, just not real popular. I don’t believe there is an issue with “OOP” CR125′s. Yea though – I guess the 1999 cr125 could be considered out of production in 2000. From what I understand, Honda retains all dies, molds, templates and such to continue to manufacture 99′ CR125 parts, and with HRC now actively participating in larger karting events – I seriously doubt availability of anything would be an issue – not anywhere in the near future anyway. I’ve blown up allot of stuff (only caused by mechanic issues – me) and never had an issue with acquiring proper replacements.

      Actually, HRC has nothing to do with any 2 strokes anymore, I think you meant HPD…

      CR

      Chris Reinhardt

      CR2 Motorsports

      http://www.cr2motorsports.webs.com/

      XV Racing Products

      http://www.xvengineering.com/

      ­­

    • #8936
      Troy V Smith
      Participant

      What’s HRC?  LOL

      We may not be the fastest on the track...but we're having the most fun!
      https://www.facebook.com/wearekarters

    • #8943
      James McMahon
      Participant

      HPD is making the parts for the CR125 Stock Moto “kit” available and so far has been committing to do so on a year-by-year basis.

    • #8944
      Chris Reinhardt
      Participant

      HPD is making the parts for the CR125 Stock Moto “kit” available and so far has been committing to do so on a year-by-year basis.

       And you would know Honda’s commitment how???

      Parts come through American Honda Parts Div.  HPD has a racer program for discounts and contingency…..  Just like what Tom does with the TM’s :) :) :)

      CR

      Chris Reinhardt

      CR2 Motorsports

      http://www.cr2motorsports.webs.com/

      XV Racing Products

      http://www.xvengineering.com/

      ­­

    • #8948
      Thomas Barth
      Participant

      Steen, been to Europe a couple of times Uncle Sam sent me once so I am familiar  with the area. Yes, I am referring to proximity of tracks for most Europeans.

      Look at it this way Italy is approximately 114K  square miles in area compared to Texas 269K square miles. But in Italy there is probably close to 70 kart tracks. I’m not sure if we have 70 sprint tracks in the whole of the U.S. A. Just trying to point out that karting in the U.S. has different parameters than Europe.

      Also I tried to answer the questions posed by Derek as honestly as I could from my perspective. Of course I am partial to the KZ. I invite anyone out there to provide a rebuttal to my views or, the reasons why Derek should go with Honda.

      Honda no longer produces CR125 motorcycles. Tell me why they would continue to produce engines especially since the company has never produced 125cc kart shifter engines.

       

      Just tryin’ to defend my position by giving Derek the facts about real kart engines (KZ) and the imposter, dirt bike engines.

    • #8955
      Troy V Smith
      Participant

      Thomas Barth wrote:
      Honda no longer produces CR125 motorcycles. Tell me why they would continue to produce engines especially since the company has never produced 125cc kart shifter engines.

      As I have no experience at all with any KZ – I’m sure your points are valid with such a motor, but I would think a reality check to be in order with your opinions of the CR125.

      A 2013 Chevy Camaro is no longer produced either – doesn’t mean there is no continued support from or for the motor?  Oh well, I guess I’m glad I don’t race dirt bikes anyway.  I really don’t care why HPD has made the decision to provide a continued support for karters, but I do know there are a whole lot of us that appreciate it and have allot to gain from it.  For Honda to step in with the HPD program says allot about it’s commitment and promotion to the sport in general.   And Honda does produce a shifter kart motor – and it’s called a CR125.  it is far from an “imposter” as you call it, it is relatively safe to say that the CR125 is a huge chunk of the shifter kart package as well as a huge following, far exceeding that of the any KZ here in the states.

      Intended purpose of the motor is really irrelevant if you ask me.  I could take a KZ motor and turn it into a trolling motor if I wanted to – not practical, but doable.  So to say “this is the motor you need cause it a “kart” motor”, and not this one “cause it’s a dirt bike motor” seems ludicrous to me.

      But with that said, if a KZ class was what I had to run here – that’s what I’d have.  There is a whole lot more to making a decision toward engine packages than just, “use this one”.

      We may not be the fastest on the track...but we're having the most fun!
      https://www.facebook.com/wearekarters

    • #8957
      James McMahon
      Participant

      Chris, breath before you type.  I’m merely paraphrasing what Honda\HPD published on their own website..

       

      Karting 

      AHM and HPD make Honda CR125 engine parts and rebuild kits available to kart racers and builders throughout the United States via The Honda Racing Line. The Honda two-stroke engine is used in the popular Spec Honda/Stock Moto classes by a variety of karting sanctioning bodies. The Honda Racing Line offers racers a new source for CR125 parts, engine-rebuild kits and technical support. HPD works with sanctioning bodies to ensure the Honda CR125 program continues to grow and succeed.

       As in 2012, HPD will again offer support programs for competitors using the Honda CR125 engine package during the SKUSA ProTour and WKA Dunlop Tire Road Race series seasons, as well as all SKUSA PKC series.

       HPD also offers an exciting and innovative new package, a fuel-injected, four-stroke CRF250 engine, featuring a complete engine/chassis install kit to help get racers on track. The CRF250 provides longer intervals between top-end changes, and offers the ease of using pump gas, resulting in an unmatched driving experience.

    • #8977
      Chris Reinhardt
      Participant

      Tom, you still with the same old BS line!!!!  Honda does make a karting engine, it’s CR125 kit motor based on the  1999 CR125 motorcycle engine.   It’s approved, sanctioned, raced by every major karting organization in the country.  You’re just pissed because it has WAAAAAYYYY more numbers than ICC ever had in this country…..  And they have been making it since 1999.

       

      Jimbo, where on the website did say anything about  “committing to do so on a year-by-year basis”?

      Breath, then reread what I wrote….

       

      CR

      Chris Reinhardt

      CR2 Motorsports

      http://www.cr2motorsports.webs.com/

      XV Racing Products

      http://www.xvengineering.com/

      ­­

    • #8983
      Eric Davis
      Participant

      Derek, good questions, and here are my thoughts.  My experience comes from sprint racing in Formula C (Rotary ICC), Pro Mod Moto 125, ICC (Reed Valve ICC), 250 stock/sprint, and 125 spec moto.

      1.  ICC is a higher horsepower engine than a spec moto, but it’s powerband can sometimes be peaky and more difficult to drive than a spec moto.  The Dellorto carb can be difficult to Race tune because you have so many variables and top level racers don’t always like to discuss the carb tuning tricks (Carb and intake are the number one places to find power advantages in ICC).  Spec moto’s carb is much more simple and has less tuning options.  Strangely enough, the fuel system on a spec moto can sometimes be Very Expensive due to Pump-Arounds vs Gravity feed, etc.
      2. ICC’s parts and maintenance are always more expensive than spec moto.  The ICC’s Cranks, Cylinders, Rods, Bottom End Bearings, etc, are usually twice as expensive.  ICC Engine Run time varies significantly depending upon how high you rev the engine, what oil you use, oil mix ratio, temperatures, drive time, etc.   Generally speaking, a spec moto considerably outlasts an ICC.
      3. ICC Costs More – If you’re focused on costs, buy the spec moto.  If you’re club has only spec moto drivers, and/or if you have local support for the spec moto, it’s probably an easy decision.
      4. I chose the ICC as my daily practice/race engine (TM K9B/C).  The ICC has a great feel, sound, fit, finish, exhaust out the rear (no more elbow burn), etc.  I just like it better.  It has plenty of power to make me smile, and I don’t mind the additional costs vs spec motor.  On another note, one of the very best engines I’ve ever driven is the CR250 on a sprint chassis.  47hp stock, the engine ran all year on a single piston (sprint racing), and it had more power than anyone of us could handle.  You really could miss a gear in a race and still have so much torque that you’d giggle coming out of every turn.  Absolutely fast, Reliable, and the least expensive class to purchase, maintain and spec.   I thought this would have been the spec class of the future, but it never really took hold.
      5. TM or Maxter – Largest parts availability and tuning knowledge.  Both are great, plenty fast, and will make you smile a ton.
      6. ICC doesn’t really exist in my region.  Almost all local race classes are spec moto.

      In summary, the spec moto engine is a very reliable, comparatively inexpensive (2.5k), fun, and generally easy to tune racing engine package.  The ICC costs more to purchase (4k complete), has higher maintenance costs, and is harder to tune.  Like any other engine package, if you decide to go to the national/international level, the engine costs increase significantly due to the need of hiring a solid engine builder/tuner to find every little bit of horsepower to keep you up front.   Once you go to this level, the entry costs for both types of engines are about the same to purchase (5k for a national spec moto package complete and about 5k for a national ICC package complete).  The ICC will require more maintenance ($$) than a spec moto, but it will be a bit faster.  A key point — At this level of competition, both engines will require a hired tuner/engine specialist to setup the carb, oil, etc. to maximize their engine’s power.

      If you’re racing locally, buy whichever engine makes you SMILE.  You’re not doing this to make money, so go find whichever engine you prefer (and chassis/brake setup), and just enjoy your time driving.  You’ll have a great time, and really learn about driving.

      Overall, I much prefer the ICC even with the increased costs, carb, etc. and  I hope to be driving my TM’s and Maxter’s for many more years.  :)

    • #9004
      Thomas Barth
      Participant

      Troy, go for it!!

      Chris, someone under contract from Honda assembles 125 cc shifter engines and calls them kart engines. When parts are gone engine is gone.

      This is what ticks me off about posters who have no or little knowledge of the subject:

      There are no 2.5K spec motos.

      KZ (ICC) is easy to tune. What’s to tune?

      I maintain more KZ engines than any other shop in the U.S. The engine is work of art, easy to disassemble and reassemble. Someone out there in Honda land say it isn’t so.

      Does not cost and arm and leg to repair or run.

      The KZ does NOT require a tuner to set up. The carb is essentially a one time set up. Select a gear and go racing.

       

      PS. got two calls today looking for TM KZ10 engine info.

       

    • #9010
      Chris Reinhardt
      Participant

      Chris, someone under contract from Honda assembles 125 cc shifter engines and calls them kart engines. When parts are gone engine is gone.

      The Italian’s must do it differently, but I was under the impression that EVERY assembly is made up of parts, and when the parts are gone, so are the assemblies….   I guess the Italian’s crap them out as whole engines, interesting…. :)

      It’s funny, the more you argue, the less sense you make….. :)

      You can argue all you want about what’s a “real” kart motor and what isn’t.  Briggs powered karts probably out number all other karts in the universe 2:1 at least, I read somewhere the that the KT100 was a generator motor at first, it is what it is.  The bottom line is competition.  I would willing to bet that if Honda gets behind the CRF250’s, and they aren’t stupid crazy to maintain,  that when the CR125’s go by by, the 4 strokes will fill their shoes quite nicely, and they sound way cool!!!!

      CR

      PS SOMEBODY AT EKN PLZ FIX THE FRIGGIN QUOTE BUTTON!!!!!

      Chris Reinhardt

      CR2 Motorsports

      http://www.cr2motorsports.webs.com/

      XV Racing Products

      http://www.xvengineering.com/

      ­­

    • #9011
      James McMahon
      Participant

      Chris, the title of link I posted is “2013 Honda North American Motorsports Overview”. From that context, I interpret the release as being a statement of intent and commitment for ’13 and no further than that unless expressly stated. I’m not saying the end is nigh, they’ll probably (hopefully) do the same for ’14. Just making the point that this is the closest thing I have seen to a commitment from HPD, and its stands as being one year, each year.

    • #9013
      James McMahon
      Participant

      I think Eric gave a fairly balanced POV in his post.

      Good\fresh used stockers seem to go for about $2500-2800 for ’99 cylinders. Maybe as much as $3500-3800 for a “badass” ’01 motor.
      Build it yourself kit, brand new, $2375 (sans pipe, mount and other peripherals)
      Brand new, assembled $3900 upwards

    • #9014
      Chris Reinhardt
      Participant

      Chris, the title of link I posted is “2013 Honda North American Motorsports Overview”. From that context, I interpret the release as being a statement of intent and commitment for ’13 and no further than that unless expressly stated. I’m not saying the end is nigh, they’ll probably (hopefully) do the same for ’14. Just making the point that this is the closest thing I have seen to a commitment from HPD, and its stands as being one year, each year.

       

      Dude, stop drinking your race fuel!!!  Now you’re a clairvoyant?  As in 2012, HPD will again offer support programs for competitors.  Means it’s a year by year lease?  I read it as, same program as last year… You would really need to ask them to find out what their commitment is….

      And again, Jim, Tom, HPD is NOT the only source for motors and parts, it is another source for them….

      CR

      Chris Reinhardt

      CR2 Motorsports

      http://www.cr2motorsports.webs.com/

      XV Racing Products

      http://www.xvengineering.com/

      ­­

    • #9017
      James McMahon
      Participant

      Fully aware that HPD are not the sole supplier, the prices I quoted above were from sharkshifter and extreme.

    • #9025
      Chris Reinhardt
      Participant

      So what was the point of even making an outrageous conclusion about HPD’s commitment, if they’re not the only source for motors or parts?

      Chris Reinhardt

      CR2 Motorsports

      http://www.cr2motorsports.webs.com/

      XV Racing Products

      http://www.xvengineering.com/

      ­­

    • #9029
      Brian Degulis
      Participant

      Derek think about this. You have a group of manufacturers building and marketing KZ engines. They’re modern complete dedicated kart engines. One obsoulete converted bike engine is more popular in the USA than all the KZ’s combined.

      Brian

    • #9055
      James McMahon
      Participant

      Mcdonalds is more popular than a lot of burger joints….. Nothing wrong with McDonalds, it just might not be for everyone.  Sure there’s strength in numbers but I think that making a decision based on how popular something seems on a national scale may not be the best way to go.

      Again, it really comes down to where you plan running your kart,  and personal preference. Across the nation, for sure the most talked about is spec\stock moto there’s no denying that. On the other hand the last race I attended out my way had just shy of 50 shifters, I would say less than 10 were bona-fide stockers, rest were KZ/ICC/Mod and I think we might have had a yammie 250 four cycle shifter or two as well.
      A stocker won that race incidentally…..

    • #9057
      Keith Bridgeman
      Participant

      Really it comes down to this.  If your new to shifters in the last 5-6 years you’ve been told stock honda is the cheapest and greatest.  So thats what you know.

      If you where in karting mid 2000’s you knew ICC.   Late nineties it was built moto.   Ive had all three and can make an educated decision based on this.

      We are simply in a spec world of karting right now.   People now just like spec and stock moto is a bit cheaper.   Unless you need to have that $1000  2001 cylinder but that cost is ok…..

      I will spend that bit more on the KZ experience myself.

      http://bridgemanbroskarting.blogspot.com/

    • #9062
      Derek Lodato
      Participant

      @ Brian Degulis …Your response was very enlightening

      It also brings to mind. Why hasn’t America stepped up to produce their own purpose built shifter kart engines?

      Sure Stock motos are good.. .KZ looks to be the F1 of karting but all I hear from various people are costs are higher with KZ, Maxter is crap TM is the way to go. ICC’s blow up maintenance cost is high etc etc

      All this talk is making me want to buy an Easykart shifter or something way different than the norm. Seems that this battle between moto and icc has been going on forever. Sure I am new to OWNING a shifter but not being around the topics that have been brewing since the 90’s.

      ICC vs Moto is a battle that would only will be put to rest by a new different dominant power plant hitting the scene.

      Now we have the mighty 4-stroke. Personally I’m not a fan but they will continue to grow. I think we’ll miss a great opportunity to come up with something reliable, powerful and with ongoing design upgrades. But no… we’ll just grab another made for motocross engine and slap it on a kart. That thing looks hideous on a kart. Big bulky hunk of metal that doesn’t belong on a kart.

      Another question, since there are SO many karting enthusiast and racers, why should karting be different than any other motorsport? Why not continue to develop a good power package with reliability and cost effectiveness. We need a purpose built kart engine.

      Some will say we already have that with the ICC/KZ engine but then there’s the cost and maintenance issue again and then we are in another continuing never ending discussion.

      Let’s think outside the box…. I’d like to see a powerful 2-stroke powerplant purpose built kart motor in which parts are affordable. Perhaps American Made this time to keep costs down. Perhaps an ICC/KZ american made engine with parts availability in the states so you don’t have to spend so much on maintenance.

      Yep I know… Keep dreamin right?

    • #9099
      Brian Degulis
      Participant

      For me it doesn’t have to be American made it just has to be well supported in the US. Purpose built is nice but with all the stuff that’s available to adapt a Honda it’s far from a jury rig. For me “what you see is what you get” is a good thing. I’m not interested in chasing the latest greatest Italian engine every year.

      4 strokes? I love them!!!! I have a CRF250 and a 450. Both are torque monsters and just amazing rides. Because production numbers on them are so much higher than anything in karting parts and information are very easy to find. The weight is a down side but not as bad as some might think. I pulled a Pavesi off one kart and replaced it with a CRF 250. The increase was under 18 lbs.

      Brian

    • #9101
      Thomas Barth
      Participant

      Chris,

      I spent 37 years in the auto industry, most of it in manufacturing and assembly. I know a assembly plant when I see one. I was in Pesaro, Italy and visited the TM plant. It is a manufacturing plant dedicated to kart engines and ta da!…. motorcycles. Thought you would like that.

    • #9133
      Robert Lawson
      Participant

      Derek,

      In your initial post you asked many questions but left out your intentions.

      Are you a Sprint Racer or Road Racer? Or both????

      Some may think it doesn’t matter to your choice of engine brand but I would disagree.

      Road racing is far more expensive than Sprint racing, logistically speaking. You will travel further, stay longer and spend more $$$$ in fee’s. If this is budgeted into your racing plans then you must at least consider these costs.

      It boils down to preference, the Bike engine will be easier to maintain with local shops able to supply your parts. No shipping fee’s or return headaches! BUT, beware…..it is a “spec” package not a “stock or OEM” package. You won’t be able to buy some of the parts used in the “spec” form at your local bike shop.

      The ICC/KZ has an exotic mystique to it. It rev’s higher, feels more powerful and is a much cleaner package (intake/exhaust location).

      Buying into what is popular today can and will quickly change, it’s the only sure thing in this sport/hobby.

      I’d look to the classifieds for a pulse, awful lot of “spec” and “mod” Hondas for sale these days……something to think about.

      Good Luck in your quest.

      RPM

    • #9137
      nigel cooper
      Participant

      I really liked what Eric Davis had to say on his post.I was really interested in comment #4.

      Why did cr250 sprints not take hold? Cheap and big power? To me its seems the way to go

    • #9140
      Brian Degulis
      Participant

      For us more power is better. For track owner/operators it’s not. They need to consider insurance and overall safty in general. CR250 or CRF450 is to much power for most sprint tracks.

       

       

      Brian

    • #9142
      Derek Lodato
      Participant

      @ Robert … My area of interest is Sprint only .. Thanks for your feedback

      @ Brian Degulis… I would tend to agree with you

      In light of the power subject… What do you guys think about the Aixro Wankel XR50 engine?

      I’ve see YouTube videos of it just grabbing the road catching ICC and Stock Moto with ease on the straights and staying with them pretty well through the corners

       

    • #9150
      Brian Degulis
      Participant

      Yep I have one and that’s pretty much true. 48 HP with no real power band the torque is there at all throttle positions above 5000 RPM. 50 hours between rebuilds and the rebuild is pretty simple some guys in the UK are running 100 hours and still competitive. The down side is it’s a $7000 engine and the US importer leaves a lot to be desired. And that’s part of my prefrence to honda. When you have plenty of sources for parts your not forced to deal with a bad one. Many that have Aixro here in the US deal with people in the UK rather than the dealer/distributor in south FL.

       

      Brian

    • #9166
      Thomas Barth
      Participant

      Stay calm and Drive KZ

    • #9394
      Tim Pappas
      Participant

      Same time. Same bat channel.  Same people.  Same B.S.

       

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