December 9, 2015 at 1:08 pm #57905Rod ClinardParticipant
Heard the interview with TomKutscher and there was mention of a motor claiming rule. Can anyone explain the details of the rule?
December 9, 2015 at 1:43 pm #57906
I don’t think the full details are set, but it is coming for sure in 2016. Maybe you should call Tom, as he said in the video he is always available to his customers :P
I’d guess the drivers who finish last will be given preference to claim an engine if they’d like and would have to pay what the cost of a new engine is plus $800 or $1000 dollars to make it happen.
there is obviously gong to be people in favor and against this, both will have valid points. It can be a pain in the ass, but it could level the paying field (or give you a a sense of it). If they feel the need for that it must be they have reasons to think someone is not playing by the rules or bending them.
I would like to hear opinions on this topic…
December 10, 2015 at 6:12 am #57927Joey GuyonParticipant
It’s a good image idea. If people think Pagano has some crazy engine and can’t drive… well go ahead and claim it.
Personally I’d rather claim the engine of the guy in 12th who was impossible to pass because he had so much straight speed.
In claimer racing you hardly ever see an engine claim. The Quebec karters put a claim rule in about 5 years ago because of paddock rumours of Lance Stroll’s rotax engine budget. Well guess what? Nobody ever claimed his stuff.
Same with our local IMCA circle track series 20 years ago. There was a $500 claimer rule while guys were barrelling around with $4000 engines. Hardly any claims.
If we see it anywhere it will be in Cadet where rivalries and fired up dads have pissing matches.
I’m interested to hear more opinions.
December 10, 2015 at 7:15 am #57931Greg WrightParticipant
My comments are not about SKUSA’s claiming rule per se but about engine claiming rules in general.
Claiming rules have come and gone several times in the history of kart racing and others. None have actually worked by my observation. Usually there seems to be some sort of “gentlemen’s agreement” that no engines will be claimed.
One other result that I have personally witnessed nearly becomes a conspiracy theory type of thing. It usually goes like this;
Race #1. Winner’s engine is claimed, winner refuses to let engine go and is disqualified and suspended.
Race #2. Winner’s engine is claimed, winner refused to let engine go and is disqualified and suspended.
By the 4th or 5th race of the season a quarter of the field is suspended and the rule fades into obscurity.
Take my comments for what they’re worth.
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December 10, 2015 at 7:43 am #57933
Greg, that wouldn’t happen in SKUSA national races. Do you think D.Formal or any supernats winner would not give up the engine?
If anybody had the chance to buy Formals supernats engine at retail + $1000 right after the race, who would not buy it? Most likely whoever bought it will find out that it was a great engine just like most of the front runners in the s1 class, but the new owner can’t win with it, it was definitely not only his engine that won supernats. But, the rule does provide (1)some sense of leveling the field. Knowing that you can get a winning engine without paying ridiculous amount of money for a “stock class” engine. and,(2) if the forced seller was in some way cheating and spent a lot of money to built that one engine, he might not be willing to go to that extent again(I believe those are the 2 main goals behind the new claim rule)
But it’s racing, and people will spend whatever they can to win…
December 10, 2015 at 8:23 am #57934Dan SchlosserParticipant
Want to make the claiming rule effective? In addition to the open claiming have the series claim an engine from the top ten at random in every class, each weekend. Then put that engine up for auction after it is teched and reassembled. Takes the stigma away of being “that guy” yet forces everyone to keep it honest.
In this case the series can hand the racer a new engine package (since they are the importer anyway) and $1000 then sell the claimed engine afterwards and still break even.
That would take a bite out of the gentlemen’s agreement scenario.
December 10, 2015 at 9:17 am #57938Patrick RothParticipant
I like the idea of the claiming rule in theory but the application seems full of issues…
I wish they would limit the variation in the overall package. For example, pick one fuel (none of this MS98 or C12), one silencer, one carb, one cylinder, one reed set, and one fuel delivery system. I’d even like to see a standard airbox used so that those people that race at tracks with noise restrictions aren’t having to adjust to using a filter when going to the large events. If they want to use a claiming rule than limit it to cylinders and carbs rather than complete engines.
Just my two cents… Cheers!
December 10, 2015 at 11:29 am #57951Curtis CookseyParticipant
I like Dan’s idea, if the organization claimed a motor each race, it might work.
When a rumor starts circulating that someone is spending an outrageous amount of money on motors it is bad for the sport.
December 10, 2015 at 6:11 pm #57964Howie IdelsonParticipant
Yay! Imagine if Rotax did that…
December 11, 2015 at 2:09 pm #57988Curtis CookseyParticipant
If SKUSA just randomly picked a few drivers each race and made them swap motors it would be better than a one racer claiming another’s motor. Making a racer claim another’s motor creates too much animosity.
December 12, 2015 at 10:38 am #58002William MartinParticipant
I can’t imagine that claiming a “leased motor” is going to work out so well…the idea of swapping at random for just the duration of the race event would be sort of more palatable to the owners of said leased motors. But still not too popular…
December 12, 2015 at 8:34 am #57998Anthony DePaloParticipant
If you prove yourself as a top driver, of course the engine builders will give you their best stuff, doesn’t mean it’s illegal. Most of the time it’s just people crying because they got beat.
December 15, 2015 at 12:38 pm #58100
swapping motors wouldn’t work in the shifter class(and probably neither on the other classes). many different fuel systems, jetting’s, etc. wouldn’t be fair to race with an engine you haven’t practice with or had time to find out what works on it best. I have two engines and they need different jets to perform at their best. leased engine? the builder should then be happy his engine is sold after the event for retail cost plus $1000 on TOP of the lease money$ charged for the race itself. win win! right? (unless of course the builder has spent considerable time on that specific engine to make it the best or is just a one of a kind cylinder and cant replicate easily, then he is out of luck :) goal accomplished
I don’t think the claim system will be used too often in the shifter class, but it is a good thing to have. if you have raced for a few years, it should be obvious to you that some engines are stronger than others, no questions about that… so this might help distribute those engines. the talented drivers that are winning now will continue to win, I don’t doubt that.
my guess is we won’t see all of the ‘strong’ engines in next few races, some will definitely will be saved for SuperNats lol
December 16, 2015 at 5:45 am #58117AnonymousInactive
What problem are they trying to solve with the claiming rule? Honest question.
December 16, 2015 at 6:19 am #58118Christian FoxParticipant
Tim, the claiming rule is an attempt to level the playing field, motor-wise, by removing the incentive to spend many thousands of dollars part selecting a “super motor.” The theory is no one will spend 10 grand building a motor only to have it claimed for 4 grand after the race. One hole in the theory is maybe a huge budget racer/team won’t care….they just want to win super nats, and give no thought to a 6 grand loss…cost of racing and all that.
My question: how much performance variation is there in X30’s? I’ve always been under the assumption they are much closer out of the box than Rotax motors. Do builders part select and Frankenstein them to the degree that happens in Rotax?
December 16, 2015 at 10:55 am #58134AnonymousInactive
My experience with X30’s is that they are very close out of the box. We’ve never “owned” an X30, yet always competitive with our lease engines, and we’ve leased them from multiple different engine builders….
Seems like they are trying to solve for a problem that doesn’t exist… especially when it’s legal to blue print the engine.
Will be interesting to see if ANYONE claims an engine over the course of 2016… maybe it’s just to shut up the people who are always complaining. “hey, if you think their engine is better, go claim it… otherwise, shut up… ”
December 16, 2015 at 7:21 pm #58148Howie IdelsonParticipant
It’s a good move by SKUSA. Claiming rules work. Stops the chatter and speculation about motor cheating. You think they’re doing something, step up and buy that motor. There most likely won’t be many takers once the rule is in place though – because, the rule is in place. The Stock Moto and X30 as well as Mini Swift motor situation in SKUSA is pretty even compared to, say Rotax, where Money wins.
December 17, 2015 at 10:08 am #58179Daryle RedlinParticipant
The only issue with claiming rules is that racers have a hard time accepting getting ” claimed”. As soon as you claim someones else’s engine you are now the bad guy. That in itself keeps most people from claiming. Its totally different if you are racing at a local oval track in a claimer class. In that situation the claim amount is usually really low ie.$500 and its expected that you will get claimed. In karting, I personally don’t think it will do much, I might be wrong but I don’t think its the best option. Just have solid, straight forward tech rules and enforce them completely. If your motor is out of spec you are DQ’d for the entire event and you are put on probation for the next event. You need to have solid tech however to make it all work. Good engine builders shouldn’t be penalized for doing a good job. If you want to spec the engines so they are all the same then spec all the parts right down to the same base gaskets etc. Personally I think it takes some of the fun out of racing but if you are that worried that its causing a huge problem then just spec and check everything.
December 17, 2015 at 1:42 pm #58181TJ KoyenModerator
Anyone who is competing at the front of SKUSA events knows that the engine isn’t winning the race.
Good rule. Limits whining.
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December 19, 2015 at 6:56 am #58267Chris JenningsParticipant
I think it will limit field size. While the intent might be a noble one the end result will probably not be what was expected. I don’t want that to happen but I think it is inevitable. The faster guys spend way more time and energy testing things to get everything just right. This kind of says you don’t deserve your small gains earned through your effort. Unfortunately the fast guys won’t agree with that. I sure hope the rule doesn’t actually go into effect. Time will tell.
December 20, 2015 at 1:23 pm #58298Troy McCallParticipant
I agree with Howie and TJ. I worked for a cadet that had his motor claimed in SKUSA. Person who claimed it said it was the biggest waist of money ever because their motor was better. Either way it stopped the whining about our driver dominating because of a motor.
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