Driving: Slow in Slow out

[Ray Lovestead]

So I think I’ve been taking the slow in fast out idea too far.  After reviewing my Mychron GPS data I found a few corners that I could take way faster.
My question is – do you experienced drivers really subscribe to the slow in-fast out philosophy?  I find that when I go slow in I’m on the fast pedal WAY before the apex.  Seems like I should only be able to be on the gas once at (or past) the apex.  If I’m truly at the limit, it should be fast in, faster out.

Ray

"Karting Expert Since 2015"

[James McMahon]

You nailed it, fast in faster out. Slow in fast out is a great tip when you are starting out however.

In terms of power vs apex, really depends on the turn and the line you take, but if you are wayyyy early then yeah, you might simply be coming in too slow.

[Greg Wright]

I prefer the term “Cool in, Hot out” but I subscribe to the general idea and always have. It depends on what you consider to be “Slow in”. That doesn’t mean creeping but there is a lot of time to be lost charging in too hard and a lot of time to be gained with a good fast exit.

  You definitely should be hard on the gas before the apex of the corner, if you aren’t picking up the throttle until the apex you are giving up time and straightaway speed.

Greg Wright
Rapid Racing Inc.
Vintage B-Stock Pilot
"When in doubt Gas it, It won't help but it ends the suspense."

[Ray Lovestead]

So you are saying that after the initial threshold brake I should immediately begin picking up some throttle (until max throttle at the apex)?

How is this for another vague question:  Should you threshold brake every time you brake?  Or are there times when you can be lazy with the brake?

To me it seems like the brake should 100% if you need it, otherwise you’d lose time getting back on the throttle..

Ray

"Karting Expert Since 2015"

[TJ Koyen]

I think Greg’s definition of “cool in, hot out” is more accurate than “slow in, fast out”. You really want to be “fast in, fast out”.

The definition of “racecraft”, as opposed to just being able to drive, is knowing how and when to attack the entry or exit of a corner depending on the situation.

Ray,

Minimizing the amount of time you’re on the brakes (in other words, braking as hard and as quickly as possible) obviously will be the fastest way to slow down. So in hard braking situations you’ll want to be on the brakes hard and fast as much as you can. But in racing situations or times where you aren’t slowing down that much, maybe you’re going to be more strategic with your braking force. Sometimes all it takes is a little graze of the brakes in a long corner to set the kart nicely. Or if you’re trying to set a guy up into the corner, maybe you’ll really slow down your entry and go nice and easy to fully maximize your exit.

Driver/Coach/Wrench : Innovative Performance/Exprit
Owner : Oktane Visual - www.oktanevisual.com
www.facebook.com/oktanevisual
www.instagram.com/oktanevisual

[Brian Degulis]

I did the same thing. At first I would charge into the corners way to hard brake way to late and come out way to slow. Then I got some advice and I started coming in to slow. I found the best way to figure it out is to follow someone that’s fast. You’ll be able to see exactly what your doing wrong.

After being in this for a year now I am throughly amazed at how much there is to “racecraft”. It’s pretty easy to show up on a track day and do what most are doing. After a few months I was able to run the average times pretty easily. Getting up to where the really good guys are is a whole diffrent story.

Someone mentioned it earlier on another thread. I think a drving or “racecraft” section in this forum would be a very good idea and probably generate a lot of participation.

Brian

[Rob Kozakowski]

Paul, not sure if my response is (1) wtf?; or (2) keep going, I’m curious.  And even if it’s (2), I’m not sure if it’s because of (a) I want to learn something; or (b) I want to see if this is ever going to make any sense.

Seriously, I’d like to hear about the magic, but I’m really having trouble following…so far!

 

 

 

[Ray Lovestead]

I wasn’t going to go there Rob, but I’m more confused now than I was before I knew what the question was.

Here is what I found very useful.  Following closely behind someone who is JUST a little faster than me.  Following someone 2 seconds faster than me is useless because they just walk away.  But I found I learned what speed was possible by following someone JUST ahead of me.

Ray

"Karting Expert Since 2015"

[Rob Kozakowski]

The other thing that cannot be overlooked in all of this is how the kart is setup, how it’s handling, and general grip levels will have a MAJOR impact on the ability to attack a corner vs. “easing” around a corner, and the resulting ability to carry speed into, through, and out of a corner.

As the most extreme example I’ve experienced, (quite) a few years back, I went from a final practice session where I was a full 2 seconds off the pace on well-worn tires, to setting a track record in qualifying an hour later with new tires.  It was also a lesson on how pointless it can be to try to tune a chassis unless you’ve got decent rubber under you.  The only change I made between practice and qualifying was changing old rubber for new because it really was all tires that were slowing me down and giving me no grip whatsoever.

[Matt Dixon]

15XG’sXRadius=( )the square root of = Max MPH

94y

[Matt Dixon]

With Rays GPS he knows his speed and G’s through any corner and can figure the radius of said corner. When he goes over the data to see if he can change his speed at any point in said corner to lower his split time through said corner.  He can use that formula to see where he is to hot.

 

To keep the numbers simple We will use 1G and 100ft radius.

15×1=15×100=1500sq root of that = 38.72mph

 

So remove magic insert number, if Ray is going faster then 38mph he is loosing time in that corner.

94y

[Mike Clark]

Paul,

I keep waiting for you quit leading up to saying “it” and come out and say “it”.

One physical reason is radius needs to open up as speed increases. Another is tires can only do so much work. A lot of this stuff overlaps. It’s all time & distance.

So I am officially saying I am ready to get the ‘Magic’. Or did I miss it?

 

[Paul Kish]

thanks, lol and :)

 

I just realized I had no clue what Ray was asking about when I got in on here.

 

Oh well, hope what I wrote made some sense to someone.  and… I should just say…

nevermind … :)

 

Brake, Insert 'arc', Turn, Accelerate

[Ray Lovestead]

Paul I was thinking a similar thing, just with less words..  hehe.

Simply put – that may be the fastest line, but it very vulnerable to being dive bombed by the gent behind you.

Ray

"Karting Expert Since 2015"

[Eric Alexander]

@ Paul:  By all means, this is an open discussion.

For me, the line driven is still on the edge.  The braking is hard and you should be near the limit at turn in.  I think that is what T.J. means early on in this thread when he says “you want to be fast in and fast out”.  In that graphic, you still want to be at the limit during the red and yellow portions of the line.   I think where you’re going be less at the limit of grip is under acceleration and track-out because you’ve lessened the arc – in theory.

But the real point is how to back the corner up to be faster on exit and thus carry that additional speed down the following straight.

Also, I think that embedded graphic might be over-exaggerating the line somewhat to show the concept.   I think the linked-to page has better theoretical graphics exploring the concept mathematically.  But personally, I find the math tough to digest and only like it because it explains what I feel I ‘m trying to do.

[Greg Wright]

Wow, Has this become complicated or what, I’m sure that there’s a newbie reading this while his head explodes. Somebody want to try it again but this time in English?

 

There is no MAGIC!!

 

Greg Wright

Rapid Racing Inc.

Greg Wright
Rapid Racing Inc.
Vintage B-Stock Pilot
"When in doubt Gas it, It won't help but it ends the suspense."

[TJ Koyen]

I think this has been far overcomplicated. Shouldn’t you almost always be on the limit of traction whether it’s braking or steering or acceleration? Using all available grip possible at each second? If you are, it’s physically impossible to go faster. There’s no additional grip available.

Brake hard and you are using as much traction as possible to slow the kart. As you transition to turn-in and apex, you’re coming off the brakes and applying throttle. The grip is always at it’s peak if you’re driving on the limit, you’re just distributing it to different applications through a corner.

Driver/Coach/Wrench : Innovative Performance/Exprit
Owner : Oktane Visual - www.oktanevisual.com
www.facebook.com/oktanevisual
www.instagram.com/oktanevisual

[Greg Wright]

No Paul, I’m not trying to cause trouble or create issues. My earlier post was just pointing out that turning the art of driving into a mathematical equation is most likely not going to help the beginner just trying to figure it all out.

   I still maintain that there is no magic and we can go down all the friction circles etc. that we want but when it comes down to driving truly fast it becomes much more about heart, desire and soul than it does mathematics.

   Earlier in the thread I posted that I subscribe to and teach the “Cool in, Hot out” method of driving not “Slow in, Fast out”. This method along with an understanding of moving the apex of the corner in regards to your line seems to produce the best results for a developing driver.

   Think about making the apex of your line as far around the corner as possible and then moving the apex back until you start running out of race track on exit. This will produce the desired results.

 

Greg Wright

Rapid Racing Inc.

Greg Wright
Rapid Racing Inc.
Vintage B-Stock Pilot
"When in doubt Gas it, It won't help but it ends the suspense."

[Paul Kish]

Thank you Greg,

 

I see exactly what your showing me.  All good.  I think I’ll stop on this.  The way my mind works I want to just keep bring in more and more variables.   It will really get confusing.

example:   When you explained about running out of race track on exit, I immediately started to bring into the picture available hp and what kind of hp would be needed, in varying situations.  I assume your doing the same by wondering if were both thinking about yammi can’s or top hp shifters.  But I’d like to invite you to take a second thought about the ability to roll a portion of a turn because of slight hp input at a higher speed then entry.  Think of it as an additional option or tool to have and use when needed, prior to normal exit acceleration.  Just as a maybe an additional possibility.

 

thanks

 

paul

Brake, Insert 'arc', Turn, Accelerate

[Greg Wright]

Actually Paul, the method that I described will work regardless of HP, however the apex will not be in the same place.

Greg Wright
Rapid Racing Inc.
Vintage B-Stock Pilot
"When in doubt Gas it, It won't help but it ends the suspense."

[Mike Clark]

Paul,

Quick question. Who would be faster David Copperfield, Dave Blaney or Harry Houdini?

I bet it ain’t David Copperfield.

At Road Atlanta a fellow student was asking lead instructor Terry Yearwood about if you could figure out the limit of a car, track conditions and all the variables, plug it into a computer program or equation & determine the line you should use in a turn. The answer was: Yes you probably could or you could just drive through it 3 times and be pretty close to where you need to be.

At a recent track walk a parent who supposedly knew about racing was asking how do you know if you are one the right line or not. Well I don’t know about in a kart but in a car you read the tach at a certain point after the turn and use that as the metric. That is what I do in a kart if I can, but I don’t know any better yet. The hard part right now for me is to be able to make observations and remember and utilize the info in an environment that can be overwhelming.

I always try to figure the fastest line and then think about alternate lines. Being on line was also touted as the first priority in a car. If I am fast on line then you have to be faster and be off line at some point to pass me. Often we see passes that are made but sacrifice enough speed so that driver is immediately re passed.

Also some of the illustration of line a academic and pertain to cars. IE it is to convey a concept not be taken as ‘the line’. I have done some mid range rifle shooting and some of the bullet drop graphs remind me of the path a car takes coming off of a straight and into a turn. One thing I have felt is how much you have to add throttle to equalize the energy the tires take working hard in a corner. This was in a formula car.

I have also noticed how much the tires on a kart scrub off speed when you lose control.

You are really only dealing with contacts patches, slip angle and percent slip as nothing else touches the ground.

Keep in mind I am pretty new to karting.

[Paul Kish]

Well I did sit back down, have my second cup of coffee today and read through what I just wrote.

 

This is a first.  I read through it and made not a one change to it.  I didn’t even add a comma or correct a word.  Maybe I’m getting better at this writing stuff.

And it all made perfect sense to me.  That alone throws doubt on the whole reply.

 

paul

Brake, Insert 'arc', Turn, Accelerate

[Rob Kozakowski]

Paul, I don’t know you, but I really like your persistence to want to learn and share your thoughts!

(I think) I’m going to disagree with your thoughts on differing amounts of hp, and how they might impact your line / apex points / grip levels / etc.  That said, I’m still a little unsure of what exactly it is you’re saying, so maybe we do agree???

The first and most important thing to understand is that in racing, we can rarely look at a single corner “in a vacuum”.  We almost always have to look at a series of corners (or potentially at the track as a whole) and how the choices we make in one corner will impact the next one, and the next one, etc.  As a result of this, we often have to compromise something in at least one of those corners to get the lowest combined time through the entire series of corners.  What good is it for me to fly around the first corner, only to completely miss the next one?

If you had a track where each and every corner was connected to the next by a long straight, then and only then could you look at each corner “in a vacuum”.

The next thing to understand is where you are most likely to see varying lines, apex points, etc. in order to achieve a fast lap time, is probably in a series of corners taken by karts of differing hp / speeds.

I’ll share an example from experience.  My club’s track has one series of corners that demonstrates this well.  This series of corners features a 90-degree left hander, followed almost immediately by about a 45-degree right hander.  These are 2 very critical turns.  They lead to a short straight followed by a fairly wide 180-degree turn.  If you screw up or get the first 2 corners right, you can lose or gain lots of time, and it makes the entry to the 3rd corner a good passing zone.

In a slower 4-stroke, you do not need to lift / brake for this section.  This makes it a true “momentum” section for the 4-strokes, where scrubbing any amount of speed will hurt you.  Therefore, the goal is to “round” off the first corner and make it as much of a constant radius turn as you possibly can.  You then “round” off the second corner as well, and that’s that.  Simple to explain, but the ability to execute separates the fast guys from the slow.

In a Rotax, etc., you absolutely have to reduce speed for the first corner, because if you don’t, you will run off the track on the exit and have no chance of making the next corner.  So, the question becomes, do I only reduce my speed through the first corner enough to be fast through the first corner, or do I reduce my speed through the first corner enough to be fast through the series of 2 corners?

I’ll tell you that a lot of the guys with average to slower lap times are amongst the fastest guys through the first corner of this section.  The guys with the faster lap times are some of the slowest through the first corner of this section.

The guys who take the first corner faster tend to approach it like a 4-stroke would, and try to “round” it off and make it a constant-radius corner.  The trouble is by doing this, they are having to lift / brake to make the second corner.

The guys who take the first corner slower, approach the corner almost exactly as shown in Eric’s graphical illustration on the previous page, with a later apex.  How do I know it’s slower?  Because when I’m qualifying and I’m behind the slower guys entering this section, they gap me around the first corner.  So why would the faster guys do this?  Because it allows us to not lift around the more important second corner, at which point we drive past the other guys with ease who are lifting (or at the very least not on the throttle hard) at a point where we’re hard on the throttle.

Now onto where (I think) I disagree with you about grip levels…

If I understand your logic correctly, you’re basically saying that if one guy’s cornering slower than the other, it means he’s not using all of his available grip, so he’s going slower than he could.

One thing to remember is that a tire has grip available to do one of or a combination of 3 things – cornering, braking, and accelerating.

So just because you might be cornering slower than someone else, doesn’t necessarily mean that you’re not at the maximum level of grip available to you.  Maybe you’re just using that grip for a different purpose than the other guy.

In my example above, the slow guy (who’s fast around the first corner) is dedicating almost all of his grip to cornering through the first and the second corner.  Sure he was fast around the first corner, but by doing so, he was then forced to use all his grip for cornering in the second corner as well.

The fast guy (who’s slow around the first corner) is using his grip to brake, then make a harder initial turn in (the harder you turn, the more grip is used), but then he’s using his grip to accelerate before he’s even hit his late apex mark, which is much earlier than the guy who’s still using his grip for cornering.  The REAL fast guys do this same thing with great handling karts.

That’s not how every corner should be taken, but in my opinion, this series of corners provides a great example of where you would want to apply the idea of “slower in = faster out”.  Notice I didn’t say “slow in”.

I’m with the others – there’s no magic to any of it, and I do agree with others that you’re probably over-thinking / analyzing / complicating it.  Hopefully this helps you understand a bit better what I think the rest of us are trying to tell you.

[Mike Clark]

Paul,

I am not conflicted.  You seems to be very good at over complicating things. You entirely missed the point. Sorry if I kept it too simple and gave you the gist of a conversation the happened over 20 years ago or 4 months ago.

Sorry,

Mike Clark

[Matt Dixon]

For the record

…and I am not going to edit this

I have never used a math formula to find a way to go through a corner, but math is cool.

Paul you should play with data sometime, it will keep you thinking.

94y

[TJ Koyen]

That’s what I’m saying though; if you’re using all the grip available, regardless of which tire you’re leaning on the most, you physically cannot corner any faster. After that it’s just distributing the grip through the tires in the proper order to achieve the desired apex and exit speed.

Driver/Coach/Wrench : Innovative Performance/Exprit
Owner : Oktane Visual - www.oktanevisual.com
www.facebook.com/oktanevisual
www.instagram.com/oktanevisual

[Brian Degulis]

One thing I rarely hear talked about is how to accelerate. Beginners tend to stomp on the throttle at the apex. All carbureted engines will accelerate faster with a more gradual opening of the throttle the slower the speed at the apex the more gradual it should be. Slamming the throttle open lifts the metering rod from the main jet making more fuel available the problem is that it also lowers the vacuum which makes it impossible to pull the fuel in until the RPM comes up. When it’s extreme you feel the engine bog but it still may be happening even though you don’t feel it. Lowering the connection point of the throttle on the pedal and putting it closer to the pedal pivot point gives the pedal more throw and makes it easier to control the throttle. This works great with some beginners.

Brian

[Ray Lovestead]

I’d like to throw a monkey wrench of a question into this.  What does ‘rotation’ have to do with this.  By rotation I mean using threshold braking to rotate the kart into the turn.  Seems to me this greatly affects the karts ability to grip through the corner with ALL four tires.

Ray

"Karting Expert Since 2015"

[Eric Alexander]

Interesting addition Ray.

Of course I think on the outset one must define threshold braking to clarify the difference to trail braking.

For me trail braking is the classic Skip Barber technique of trailing off the brakes gradually as turn-in begins.  This technique allows the driver to brake deeper into a corner and carry braking through the turn-in phase.

Threshold braking (I assume – I don’t use that term… although its a good as any to label the technique) is the use of throttle underneath braking to (1) control rotation more aggressively, and (2) keep the engine revs up at the point of transferring off of braking onto throttle.

Good topic, but I’ll hold off opinion until after we confirm this is what we’re discussing. ;-)

[Rob Kozakowski]

Paul, if you really want to read about theory on the outside front, go to the eknclassic forums and search “John vs Bill”.  It’s a technical discussion from about 10 years ago.  While it’s impossible to “simplify” the discussion, one observation that John Learmouth makes is that the outside front does not have to be significantly loaded to make a kart corner quickly.

That particular discussion is more to do with the conceptual approach to kart setup from 2 slightly differing schools of thought.

But if you search anything by John Learmouth, you’ll see he keeps coming back to the same theory.

I’ll warn you, it’s some “heavy” reading…

[Paul Kish]

Again, I’m writing while having my first coffee, posting this without first reading though it and now heading off to get that other much needed second cup. … :)

 

TJ wrote:

“That’s what I’m saying though; if you’re using all the grip available, regardless of which tire you’re leaning on the most, you physically cannot corner any faster. After that it’s just distributing the grip through the tires in the proper order to achieve the desired apex and exit speed.”

Thank you.  I think you sparked something which is taking others towards what I’m still trying to point out.  It’s about there is something between deceleration and acceleration.  All drivers to be fast must learn special skills to deal with what I like to call the transition from deceleration to acceleration.  I mostly watch LTO(left turn only) and it originally and reciently within a few years of today showed itself to me LTO racing.  It’s something I’ve been watching forever, but never saw it.  When recognized it instantly took a lot of the mystery of why some are just faster then others.  I understand heart and put your all into it.  I assume and think all racers out on the track are doing just that.  I also believe any racer out on the track who is not and who’s sole purpose out there is to win no matter what their chances of winning, has no business on the track.  But that’s for another thread and moving towards the discussion would just be hijacking this thread.

Back to the discussion.  There is something between ‘Threshold Braking” and “Trail Braking”.  How much is there in-between is no different then before and after.  How much opportunity is there depends on circumstances and what the track at that point has to offer.  In LTO racing since it shows itself with a brighter brush, it is often referred to as rolling the corner.  Depending on track conditions, available hp, racing needs, etc., it may me momentary or it may appear to extend through most of the corner.  I think I am the first person to try to define it specifically and to present a reason why it can occur, even at a higher speed then entry.  I think were talking about something you have never read about before this thread.

To further understand what I reluctantly will call rolling the corner and discussions coming from it about different ways you can roll a corner, Ray brought up ‘rotation’ and I think we need to understand rotation.  I have come to define in my mind ‘rotation’ in two ways.  You can rotate through a corner, meaning to go through a corner on a curved line.  What your racing also has the ability to cause itself to interact with the track via it’s tires, in addition to traveling on a curved line along the track.  It can also make effort to rotate the outside toward the front and inside toward the rear or nose toward the inside and rear toward the outside.  The end result will be the whole kart rotating through the turn in a specific direction, because of its efforts to rotate as I described in the previous sentence.

That means when I speak of the ability of a kart to rotate, I’m speaking of it’s ability via the tires to cause it to want to twist towards the inside while negotiating the turn.  What your doing when you setup a kart and while driving is to make individual tires. combined to work toward a goal where kart rotation causes the kart to be able to go where you want it to go.  It is complicated.  There are different way to use your tires to get the same amount of rotation needed, to travel in the direction you want to go.  It becomes even more complicated because there are different ways to use your tires to brake and accelerate in the direction you want to go.  Understanding setup and driving is understanding the different ways you can use your tires to brake and accelerate in the direction you want to go.  That is pretty much all that is dealt with in all the books you will read.  And most all the bookwork you will learn with any race vehicle which turns both left and right bases things on over all grip and the rotation of the whole kart along the intended line.  All that to say, all rotation is not the same and when someone speaks of the kart rotating or a kart rotating, you need to understand the context of the word ‘rotation’.

After all that I’m going to repeat myself as I often do and say, all of my posting on here so far is trying to show there is something between deceleration and acceleration.  And it’s totally accomplished by driver skill.

I’m going to end for now I hope with, I’m NOT arguing with anyone and I’m NOT trying to say anyone is wrong.  I think I’m pointing out something which is not normally if ever, talked about on here.  I think it exists, it is seen all the time but never defined and looked at and it is a major driver skill which separates the slow from the fast.  maybe ? … :)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Brake, Insert 'arc', Turn, Accelerate

[Ray Lovestead]

Paul I have to be honest – I can’t sort through what you are saying.  I think you use too many words to convey your ideas.  I want to understand what you have to say.  I’m just looking for some economy in your explanations so I can understand it.

And by ‘threshold’ braking to rotate the kart, I of course mean trail braking deep into the corner to allow the rear to slightly slide.  I find that best setup is one that allows me to steer with my feet.

Ray

"Karting Expert Since 2015"

[Paul Kish]

There is something between deceleration and acceleration.  It can be as little as an extended point between deceleration and acceleration or it can involve the majority of the turn.  It is a transition area between deceleration and acceleration.

I don’t think it’s ever discussed.

 

 

Brake, Insert 'arc', Turn, Accelerate

[Eric Alexander]

What I sometimes do is use the brake to lock the rear and initiate the rotation (slide, oversteer, etc.) towards the apex while using throttle to stop or control the lock-up.  I think of it like yaw in an airplane – you’re literally controlling the yaw of the kart by balancing the brake and throttle pedals.  Having the throttle applied also raises the revs earlier.

I find the technique works better in some formulas than others.  Also, you have to be careful not to nullify the braking with the throttle.  Anytime you overlap throttle and brake you’re reducing the braking efficiency.

Also for the most part, oversteer is generally considered to be slower.  So the technique is best right just before the transition from braking to throttle.    So the rotation is happening right about this transition.  And by rotation, I mean the kart is physically rotating around its center point independent of the line you’re taking.

[Ray Lovestead]

I’m pretty sure that I try and keep the time between braking and gas to a bare minimum.  It is rare that I don’t have at least a small amount of either, sometimes even both as I transition.  But what are you suggesting is going on in that transition?

Ray

"Karting Expert Since 2015"

[Eric Alexander]

So as you hit your braking marks, you brake hard.   As the turn-in begins, you begin to modulate the brake (trail brake).   As you approach the transition between braking and acceleration, you  can modulate the brake to the point of lock-up, which of course causes oversteer.  Simultaneously, apply some throttle which brings the rear back under control.  Using both pedals, you can ride the edge of this – controlling the rotation – until you roll completely off the brakes and roll onto the throttle as normal.

Now I don’t do this as a rule.  But there are corners in which I do this fairly regularly.  Hairpins for example.  And if making a pass I’m always ready to transition to this technique if needed.

[Greg Wright]

It appears that the term “threshold braking” is being misused in some of the post in this thread.

Threshold braking as taught by performance driving schools world wide has nothing to do with “rotating” the kart or car for that matter but merely refers to braking as hard as possible without actually locking up the wheels.

This entire subject is being highly overthought and overcomplicated. Drive the damned car.

Greg Wright
Rapid Racing Inc.
Vintage B-Stock Pilot
"When in doubt Gas it, It won't help but it ends the suspense."

[Rob Kozakowski]

I’m not sure if this still has anything to do with “slow in/fast out”, but…

It’s taken us to Page 3, and ignoring everything else, it seems to me that what Paul originally called “magic” can now be summarized as “something between deceleration and acceleration” or a “transition area between deceleration and acceleration”.  I say that in part because I still have no clue what else he’s said!  Sorry Paul, just being honest!

I’m almost afraid to ask this, but what is that “something”?  Hopefully it doesn’t take us another 2 pages to get there…

[Greg Wright]

Throwing hands in the air in dismay!! Oh wait, make that banging head on desktop.

Greg Wright
Rapid Racing Inc.
Vintage B-Stock Pilot
"When in doubt Gas it, It won't help but it ends the suspense."

[Greg Wright]

Paul, Paul, Paul, I will go along with some of your ramblings when it comes to oval track racing where you are using stagger, wedge (cross), and various and sundry tuning elements when it comes to cornering. However most do not apply in road course (left/right) driving.

I’m beginning to find it mildly amusing that you are trying to explain the science of driving after reading your own quote below.

Paul wrote;

“I don’t race, I just watch and BS. … ”

 

Please don’t take offense, that’s not my objective at all. However this board is populated with a number of people that are very effective racing drivers and your overcomplicated explanations of your own theory tend to bounce off particularly considering that you don’t race by your own admission.

Greg Wright
Rapid Racing Inc.
Vintage B-Stock Pilot
"When in doubt Gas it, It won't help but it ends the suspense."

[Rob Kozakowski]

Ok, maybe I AM glad I asked the question… I think I’m starting to understand what you’re saying – finally!

Sorry Paul, but you have a tendency to get side-tracked in a lot of your responses, which makes it hard to understand what you’re trying to say at times, and that’s why we’re on page 3… I’m glad you kept going though because I’m always game to hear more ideas that might help me learn more.

Anyhow, I’ll agree with a few things you said…

1) It’s possible to maintain speed after decelerating, up to the point where you accelerate again, being at the limit of grip all the time – that should be obvious.

2) (SOMETIMES) It’s possible to take the same corner, on the same line, faster by being on the gas earlier because the acceleration forces will transfer weight – this might not be obvious to everyone, although I’d think that most people who have raced for any length of time should recognize this… hence, I’m not sure that it’s really “magic”.

So why is it only “sometimes”?  Well, (ignoring the driver) things like kart setup, grip in the tires, grip in the track surface, etc., all play a role.

What happens when you go into a corner, decelerate, apply throttle, and the back end steps out on you?  What happens when the front won’t turn anymore and the kart hasn’t rotated enough to make the corner exit?

This really has nothing to do with “slow in/fast out” concepts and everything to do with kart setup… which is why I think this has been over-complicated.

The fastest guys in any form of motorsports have 2 things going for them.  First, they’re talented.  Second, their car / kart is handling well.  The middle of the pack guys are lacking in one of those areas.  The back of the pack is lacking in both those areas or is seriously deficient in one area.

When you’re busy watching, look for the middle of the pack guys who try to apply the “magic”, but end up with karts that won’t respond to the driver inputs the way they’d like them to.  It’s not just driving skill that allows the “magic” to happen.

[Rob Kozakowski]

Paul, you’re really just stating the obvious…

I’m going to disagree that “the driver needs to learn how to do it”.

I actually think most drivers know how to do it. It’s called accelerating.  Or applying throttle. Or getting on the gas. Etc…

After all, the only possible way to travel faster than your “end of deceleration speed” is to accelerate.

Personally, I’d change your statement that I quoted above to “you have to have the kart properly setup to do it”.

How do you go faster on that same line if the kart oversteers or understeers when you accelerate?  You haven’t answered that question and how it applies to the ability to travel the “exact same path at a speed above your end of deceleration speed”…

[Rob Kozakowski]

In general one of three things can happen when you accelerate…

1) You continue traveling along the same (ideal) path.  This is what we all hope for.

2) You get oversteer, the back end starts to come around.  In this case you can either reduce speed to get back on the ideal path or you can correct your steering inputs (counter-steer) to keep on the correct path (although this will result in you slowing down even if your foot is held on the gas because you’ll be scrubbing speed).  The other options involve getting off-line or maybe even spinning the kart.  None of these options are ideal.

3) You get understeer, and the front end won’t track along the path you want it to.  In this case about all you can do is slow down to get back on the ideal path or induce a whole lot of extra steering input, which will again slow you down because you’ll be scrubbing speed.

Given this, how is this not an issue of kart setup, instead one of “the driver needs to learn to do it”?

[TJ Koyen]

There’s no room for “magic” between deceleration and acceleration. You should be on the throttle as soon as you’re done braking in nearly every instance of corner. If you’re coasting, you’re slowing down. If you’re slowing down, you have to add wheel input to tighten the turning radius and maintain the same load on the outside tires. If you start losing load on the outside tires, you’re not only not using all the grip and going as fast as you can through the corner, but you’re allowing the inside rear to set down and you’re going to kill your exit speed two-fold.

Also note, in sprint karting, you really only turn the wheel for a very short period of time. Just long enough on turn-in to get the inside rear to jack up. From there you should be straightening the wheel to roll off the corner and allow the lift of the inside rear wheel and the “spring” you’ve loaded in the frame to carry the kart off the corner.

Driver/Coach/Wrench : Innovative Performance/Exprit
Owner : Oktane Visual - www.oktanevisual.com
www.facebook.com/oktanevisual
www.instagram.com/oktanevisual

[Brian Degulis]

“Rob, does it matter how long it takes to get somewhere on here as long as we get somewhere?”

Are you just yanking everyones chain or could you really be this much of a wing nut?

Brian

[Matt Dixon]

I envision Broque and Ceaser sitting behind a keyboard giggling. Trolling.

 

Sorry back to the topic, wait what is it again?

94y

[Brian Degulis]

<div class=”d4p-bbp-quote-title”>Paul wrote:</div>“I envision Broque and Ceaser sitting behind a keyboard giggling. Trolling.”

And I envision a wet behind the ears kid, with no manners nor proper up bringing.

I’d appreciate ending the name calling now. If you have something to add to the discussion present it. I’ve probably been on this board and it’s predecessor since before you were born.

I suspect my irrational thoughts have even had some input into the way, the front end of the kart you ride today is designed.<br>
<hr>
<div class=”bbp-reply-signature”>Signature</div>

Your priceless I passed kid long before the Internet or any forum even existed. If you had enough sense to be relevant you’d click on a profile before commenting and if you had proper up bringing and manners you wouldn’t hijack a new comers thread with pages of crap that add up to nothing but an opourtunity for you to hear yourself talk or read your own writing.

Now I wrote this after I took a dump but before I had my coffee and I didn’t re read it so it might be BLA BLA BLA.

Brian

[Tim Koyen]

OMG…

KartLift Kart Stands
DeepSeat Kart Seats
877-777-8020
------------------
Don't bother PMing me, it doesn't work. Email is best: tim@kartlift.com.

[James McMahon]

LSD, now available as a Chrome plugin?

[TJ Koyen]

I’m still not sure I’m fully understanding what you’re saying Paul.

So you’re saying that after turn-in (some point between turn-in and apex), because of how your traction is redistributed, you can go faster than you can on turn-in? So you’re saying you can speed up after you brake and turn-in? This is obvious. This is acceleration. You keep saying there’s a point in-between decel and accel where you can roll more speed than your entry speed. The only way to roll more speed is to accelerate. You can’t speed up without accelerating. What you’re describing is the acceleration part of the corner. It isn’t a matter of magic happening, it’s good drivers correctly ENTERING a corner so they can get on the gas EARLIER than everyone else and carry more speed off the corner. There isn’t a magical increase in rolling speed.

You say, “the end of deceleration and the beginning of acceleration do not have to be an instant thing”. But they SHOULD be if you’re charging the corner on the edge or limit. I don’t mean to say that you should just stomp on the throttle, of course you should roll back into the throttle smoothly but firmly.

I think what we’re getting down to ultimately is that there are some drivers who can just feel where that traction limit is and they are able to time perfectly when to brake, when to release the brake and start rolling back into the throttle, and how to coordinate that with steering input to hover on the knife-edge of ultimate grip. It isn’t magic though. It’s the driver feeling all four corners of the vehicle. I’m not the ultimate driver by any means, but I can totally feel the grip of each tire and how it’s being distributed through the corner. Drivers who give good handling feedback are good at this.

If you pay attention while driving and practice a lot, eventually you’ll be able to feel the grip levels in the front tires through your hands on the wheel and you’ll be able to feel the grip of the rear tires through your shoulders and back in the seat. You can actually feel the load of the tires gripping through your body and if you’re in tune with your machine, you can maintain a constant load on the kart and tires and keep that load measured through the forces you feel on your body.

That got a tad spiritual almost… Maybe there is some sort of magic to it. There’s a whole other discussion on being “in the zone” and driving subconsciously. Some of this might fall into that.

Thanks for making us think Paul. Maybe your point isn’t coming across totally clear and some people have gotten frustrated but it’s good to have a multi-page massive discussion about something nearly intangible now and then. It keeps everyone on their toes.

Driver/Coach/Wrench : Innovative Performance/Exprit
Owner : Oktane Visual - www.oktanevisual.com
www.facebook.com/oktanevisual
www.instagram.com/oktanevisual

[Greg Wright]

Just to throw another wrench into all of this overanalyzing of the art of driving think about this.

There is more than one way to skin a cat, I’ve witnessed and/or raced with very fast drivers that have totally different approaches. For example Mark Dismore Sr. doesn’t appear to move his hands at all while the late great Dan Wheldon absolutely thrashed the kart around the track. Both styles resulted in competitive lap times.

Food for thought at least. Certainly an inexact science.

Greg Wright
Rapid Racing Inc.
Vintage B-Stock Pilot
"When in doubt Gas it, It won't help but it ends the suspense."

[Tim Pappas]

My head hurts.  I made the mistake of reading this thread in the morning and it made me hit the  moonshine early just to make the pain go away.

[mark crook]

complete newbie to owning a kart and i can honestly say that there is far too much maths and theory involved in this topic.

the way that i see it, there is no set rule for entering a corner, all corners are different and require different driving lines and rules.

for instance, a hairpin leading on to a straight i would brake hard, deep into the outside of the corner, turn sharp and accelerate hard. ‘hard in, hard out’

alternatively an ‘s’ bend would require a more constant speed, dabbing the brakes softly and floating the accelerator pedal gently through the corner. ‘easy in, easy out’ ???

"When In Doubt, Flat Out" - Colin McRae

[Matt Dixon]

Throw rain into the mix…

After 3 days of seeing how the best drivers in the world in just about all classes and ages approach corners in the wet you would think it was magic.

There was different entry speeds, turn in points and lines through the corners but most of the time they end up at the track out point excactly the same.

Awesome to watch.

94y

[mark crook]

only ever driven a kart in the rain once. next time i will definitely not be wearing slicks…..

the ‘magic’ was returning to the pits in one piece.

my friend kept saying “why didnt you turn into the corners, you weren’t turning in!??”, needless to say the discussion got a little heated.

"When In Doubt, Flat Out" - Colin McRae

[Charles Kaneb]

One thing to note is that the grip level changes as you go into and through a corner. Tires can heat up 50*F between the braking point and exit. You can corner harder near the apex than you did at entry. On exit you’ll have to worry about tire drag, so set your line so that you’re reducing total tire force away from the limit there.

[Ray Lovestead]

Charles

What do you mean about tire drag and ‘setting the line to reduce total tire force’?  Can anyone else picture this?
Ray

"Karting Expert Since 2015"

[Oscar Aguilera]

slow in….means that the tactical side of racing in that particular corner sees no advantage to going in balls out to that corner…because the arc of that single corner puts you in an exit…that is the wrong position to be in to take the next corner effectively to maximize speed coming out.

slow out means that tactically….it is almost a blocking situation because of the design of the track.  better to brake late to defend or go in as fast as possible and maybe scrub off more speed than necessary so as to defend or be able to set up for the next straight or corner.

if you go slow in or slow out all the time….your just slow…but sometimes you need to be more tactical in your driving so as to maximize your position on the track.  and that is the “magic”….knowing when to do this…when not too…and how many times you can be aggressive before cooking the tires…and then you have to ask yourself if the race you entered allows new tires for the final…or you have been on the same tires and tire wear is an issue.

 

plus the track changes…its more predictable in ashpalt racing…but it changes, so if you cant stay ahead of the track conditions and you have no on board tuning gadgets you need to read the track…PLUS as things heat up…and wear during the race…you will have to adjust your lines.

you are ALWAYS trying to maximize your lap…duh…but the computer can only map out one lap and one corner at a time with all the variables you input…the variables change with every lap and with other competitiors on the track.  this is for the computer needs that think there is one formula you can plug in and viola…answer spits out like in those cheesy 60’s movies.

 

AND you set your kart to come in late…or sometimes in the middle of the race…or sometimes in the begining….the strategy of where you start.

hope i answered your question without dwelling into the tuning of the kart so much…because the tuning is a major part of the equation…can make or break you…it isnt the only part of the equation.

 

 

[Oscar Aguilera]

self promoted joking post….

i will not be on here for a while as my AA meetings take too much time away since i read all these pages and started drinking Moonshine after papas brought it up.

just for fun i would like for paul k to debate gearing all by himself and see where he ends up on that theory?  lmao!!!  rotf!

yes if you have been here long enough…you will get that joke!

[Eric Gunderson]

You could always try following a ‘rabbit,’ or having one of your friends go out with you and shadow you. That’s how it will be in a race, might as well find out where you are weak in practice. Whenever I would go to a new track my tuner and I would go out and race. One would pass the other, progressively moving around the track, every corner, over and over. By the end of the day or second day I had the track figured out.

Contact: 858.335.7545

[patrick hubbell]

Yes, slow in and fast out.  Only if you are over driving the kart into the corners. Slow in means under control and no “sea sawing” of the steering wheel. Fast out is the result of being in control.

[Greg Wright]

<div class=”d4p-bbp-quote-title”>Ray Lovestead wrote:</div>
So you are saying that after the initial threshold brake I should immediately begin picking up some throttle (until max throttle at the apex)?Once you have turned in yes you should be getting after the throttle. Depending on the corner you often will be at WFO throttle before the apex.

  Regarding braking, My style (Cool in, Hot out) doesn’t include a lot of threshold type braking. I prefer to concentrate on getting through the middle and exit of the corner as fast as possible in order to maximize speed down the following straight. Very hard braking can unsettle the kart badly and result in poor mid corner performance.

Lazy on the brakes? I didn’t say that.

 
 

/div>

Greg Wright
Rapid Racing Inc.
Vintage B-Stock Pilot
"When in doubt Gas it, It won't help but it ends the suspense."

[Paul Kish]

edit up front:

The whole point of what follows is because I think if you know why you are physically able to increase your speed through the apex, it will put an objective to the different techniques being discussed.

 

Hi Ray,

You have learned to understand how entry can effect the next phase of any turn.  And what I have read in the discussion is a debate about when and how to accelerate.  I think when reading through the responses you have seen there is still something mysterious being talked about.  You have seen and others have responded about how there is something you can do to be faster through the apex.  You have experienced it and it’s being debated and argued the magic originates, either because of entry or how you intend to exit.  The magic appears to be showing itself as increased speed during the apex.

If you too are now seeing the end result of the magic, maybe after reading what I wrote, as an increased apex speed, I can tell you exactly why it is able to occur.  But before I can explain why it can happen, I must slightly have to re-define the apex or where the magic can occur.  I think anywhere you read will define the apex as a point in a turn.  I think the point will relate to most often as a transition, from one portion of a turn to another.  I also see the apex that way.

Before I can go on, if we are not on the same page so far the rest will only confuse.  So to go on I must ask if you or anyone is at least pretty much understanding the apex the same?

 

_______________________

I also must throw something else in here now so we all can include it in thoughts later.  Usually if not always when you see a drawing of the apex, the apex will occur at the inside limit of where you can drive.  Lets expand the track a little.  Before I can explain why the magic can occur, we must throw out an “inside of track” limit to where the apex will occur.  For the magic to occur we will still define a turn from a point ‘A’ to a point ‘B’, but the driving line will not necessarily make the apex occur at the inside limit of where you can drive.  I know a purest will only want to see the apex as normally defined, but you did not ask about a purest mathematical concept.  You, if I’m reading you correctly, are asking why does entry effect what you can do not only through the rest of the turn, but why specifically can one entry ‘speed’ cause quicker times through a turn.  And what’s the magic condition your trying to hit to be fast.  If you will notice I did NOT mention the line taken during entry, your question relates to speed through the turn and what is it that makes you able to have more ‘speed’ or less time through the turn.

I’m going to stop for now because if nobody is following me or nobody is interested in exactly why the magic can occur to be faster in a turn, I’m just wasting my time and your time.  I also realize I wandered off a bit.  It’s my nature and it is especially likely to happen when trying to describe magic. … :)

Brake, Insert 'arc', Turn, Accelerate

[Paul Kish]

To continue on I have to state what I consider to be facts for a straight. On a straight, “Maximum resulting speed no matter what the entry speed or gearing, involves having just enough grip to put all available hp to the track with the least conflict for control of direction from the tires. To do so you would be operating your rear tires at there maximum slip ratio.”.

Then comes the complex turn which has available grip, available hp, need to maintain momentum, driver input and racing needs; to set limits and limitations.

The turn starts with turn in which is simply the need to be able to start the process or you would continue straight. Were still racing and were still interested in what will provide us with the ability to carry or obtain the highest speed from the straight. Beyond turn in what will allow us to carry the most speed is to be able to operate our tires with the least slip angle, occurring equally at all four tires and the least conflict for control of direction. And that will occur in all parts of a corner, weather you are decelerating, accelerating or rolling in the corner. I’ve never written it exactly like that before; but I think if there is a goal for how to use your tires for speed in a corner, it may be a very good goal.

I do realize “real race cars”, as opposed to LTO(left turn only) racers,  needs are to turn both left and right.  And depending on rear axle and differential configuration, it especially limits your ability to control slip angle at the inside rear.  And I realize were talking about racing karts with a solid axle and how it is necessary to unload the inside rear in a corner.  But aside from those limitations I think I stated fairly well what is needed to negotiate a corner at the highest possible speed.  Your goal to be fast, racing something which turns both left and right and has a solid axle, is still to be able to use the inside rear as much as possible.  I suspect I will instantly get thoughts about how any use of the inside rear in a turn will reduce times through the corner.  But weather or not it’s use will reduce or enhance times depends on if you are decelerating, accelerating or rolling in the corner.  And at the start of my getting involved in this thread, I had one particular thing which I now feel is totally a driver function in mind.  I feel it is the major reason a driver can reduce time through a corner.  At least I now think it’s the major reason for reduced time beyond entry speed, entry line and how soon they can apply final acceleration out of the corner.  It’s specifically a skill all drivers need to learn, much the same as a driver needs to learn the function of and the skill to trail brake.

 

 

Brake, Insert 'arc', Turn, Accelerate

[Paul Kish]

<div class=”d4p-bbp-quote-title”>Matt Dixon wrote:</div>
15XG’sXRadius=( )the square root of = Max MPH

<hr />

Very interesting.  Does it pertain to any point in a turn or does it assume your racing in a perfectly round circle?  I have a very hard time following equation’s let alone being able to solve them.  Would you please explain your concept further or where you learned about it?

I’m trying to pass on to Ray and anyone else who may be interested a concept of why a particular portion of a turn can be taken and maintained at a higher speed then entry speed.  I think when Ray sees it he will instantly be able to put it into the perspective of why entry speed and exit speed do not necessarily relate to each other.   It’s a simple matter of being able to take the middle portion of a turn at a higher speed then entry, to the point of all out acceleration.

What generally prevents a driver from doing it is there lack of ability to keep their foot from slamming down the go pedal prematurely.  I’m leading in to showing a physical reason why you may not want to have the pedal to the floor all through a turn.  I’ve heard so often how drivers and others have said slow down to go fast.  It’s a learning process for drivers and when they do slow down and go faster, it’s usually a magical experience.  I’m simply putting a physical reason to why slowing down to go faster can occur.

I’m looking forward to additional input on your formula.  I hope it will help Ray as I think I am trying to help.  Ray states in his signature he has been a karting expert since 2014.  That and my dry sense of humor makes me want to do all I can to help.  Can I help?  I don’t know but if I do or do not Ray and I will both learn something.  I hope to learn more from you too.

Brake, Insert 'arc', Turn, Accelerate

[Paul Kish]

<div class=”d4p-bbp-quote-title”>Matt Dixon wrote:</div>
With Rays GPS he knows his speed and G’s through any corner and can figure the radius of said corner. When he goes over the data to see if he can change his speed at any point in said corner to lower his split time through said corner. He can use that formula to see where he is to hot. To keep the numbers simple We will use 1G and 100ft radius. 15×1=15×100=1500sq root of that = 38.72mph So remove magic insert number, if Ray is going faster then 38mph he is loosing time in that corner.

Thank you.  I think I partially or maybe mostly understand your reply.

To get a better understanding without hijacking Ray’s thread, may I start another thread and reference your reply to gain a better understanding?

Brake, Insert 'arc', Turn, Accelerate

[Paul Kish]

Because of deceleration and loads moving to the outside front your entry speed is limited by the gripping ability of the outside front tire.  Once in a corner and prior to full acceleration, there is an opportunity to roll or maintain entry momentum plus additional speed, above entry speed.  The driver skill required is to realize once corner entry is completed, transferred weight to the outside will be distributed more evenly between both outside tires, reducing the load on the outside front tire.  It provides the opportunity for the driver to slightly increase their rolling corner speed above entry speed and maintain it over a distance.  It’s an obvious thing to do, but a tough skill for a driver to learn.  Most any corner will provide the opportunity for some additional rolling of the corner at a speed beyond entry.   The point is the distance traveled at the enhanced speed of entry momentum plus some acceleration, which is only possible because of grip re-distribution after entry, can be taken in less time, then attempting to accelerate or maintain entry speed over the same distance.  How much the advantage will be depends on the turn configuration and the drivers choice in driving line.

It takes specific input and skill by a driver to enter, know when grip redistributes, slightly increase speed, roll with the increases speed and then lead into turn exit and full acceleration.  The portion of the turn which can be rolled at increased speed will be taken quicker then if only maintaining entry speed or if trying to accelerate too early, through the same part of the turn.

Yes this is an obvious thing we see happen every day at the races and it’s just one of those obvious not much thought about things.  But I think if you think about it a little and compare in your memory good and not so good drivers.   I think your memory will be seeing more skilled drivers doing more of it and it’s just one of those un named picture things of higher quality in your mind.  We see it every day when watching a skilled driver on the track and I’m now describing a point of why one driver appears to just be better.

 

?

 

ps… I have to add, how much you are able to relate to what I described, also depends on the available hp of what your use to watching out on the track.  In general you will see it show more with higher hp.   It is because with higher available hp, you will more likely be running closer to the limit of grip.

 

 

 

 

Brake, Insert 'arc', Turn, Accelerate

[Eric Alexander]

I’m going to try to explain this first with words, then I’ll point to a website that has some decent graphics and some geometrical calculations.

The basic premise in “Slow in-Fast out” is to back the corner up as far as track out is concerned.  The idea is while the corner itself can be taken faster using an ideal line, you’re going to sacrifice entry speed, turn-in sooner, push the “apex” later and essentially give yourself an more gradual track-out.  This enables you to get back on the throttle earlier (well before the apex), and accelerate faster, thus carrying more speed down the ensuing straight.

I find the turn-in point, depending on the actual corner geometry, may actually go deeper and more to the outside of the corner entry.  Instead of carrying speed to the actual corner apex, you brake a bit more slowing the kart down well before the actual apex.  This is the “Slow in” part.

You can see in the graphic above the arch is modified from the ideal line.  The ideal line would allow more speed to be carried into the corner, but less speed on exit.  You can also see how the apex is pushed somewhat later, but acceleration has begun well before the modified apex.  The track-out is more gradual allowing far greater acceleration.

Here’s a website with more info and some math.  LOL!

http://phors.locost7.info/phors17.htm

 

Also, it would be beneficial to point out this is best used on corners that empty onto long straights.  There are times when its best to be fast in- Slow out.  For example at the end of a long straight when the corner connects onto another corner (like an esse) or a small straight followed by another corner.  In this case, you may be better off carrying the speed you’ve got on the long straight deep into the corner and sacrificing exit speed.  Let the stopwatch be the judge.

[Paul Kish]

ok just can’t keep my mind shut… :)

Eric, I understand now what was originally asked about when “slow in fast out” was referenced.

Butt… :)  in addition, not arguing, just trying to show a concept…

I can see with slow in speeds during the ‘red’ portion of the line will be below the limit of grip.  Because your below the limit of grip it will allow for some acceleration prior to the apex.  And the whole intent I think is to be able to start your acceleration early.  But the line shown in the art work also creates a racing vulnerability.  It leaves open a line under you which when taken by another competitor will more then likely interfere with your intended acceleration.  It sets up the classic battle of a two grove track and an inside and outside  competition.

In the scenario I was trying to propose(not very well but trying), the outside racer would end the ‘red’ area and enter the ‘yellow’ area, at a higher speed and at the limit of grip.  All out acceleration could not then begin as soon, as in the “slow in fast out” scenario, but the ‘yellow’ portion could be taken per my discussion at a speed slightly higher then entry.  The line would also be a more rounded line and place the racer more toward the inside of the turn and able to apply more hp if available because of then traveling in a straighter line.   It’s a win win situation over the “slow in fast out” scenario.  First because the ‘red’ and early on ‘yellow’ portions of the line would be at higher speeds because of the higher entry speed and it will be much easier to hold the racer toward the inside of the turn protecting the exit line.

 

well… ?   I don’t think I argued with anything written on here, but instead proposed what I think is a better scenario.

 

 

 

Brake, Insert 'arc', Turn, Accelerate

[Paul Kish]

The math does not and never has dealt with the redistribution of grip.  That is the basic problem with the math and where book knowledge falls on it’s face.

IMHO, the fastest line is always on the edge.  But to get to the edge you have to have the luxury of time to increase speed, limit grip or increase hp.  Most of what everyone races can only get to the edge by limiting grip.  To limit grip it is mandatory to take into consideration the redistribution of grip.

or it don’t… ?   :)   I ain’t never sure about anything, I just once in awhile try to talk like it.

 

 

Brake, Insert 'arc', Turn, Accelerate

[Paul Kish]

Greg,

 

Can you help us out or are you just posting a general complaint about it?

I’ve learned a lot on this thread and I’m grateful for being allowed to input.

I’ve learned about a ‘slow in slow out’ line.  I’ve learned many try to drive to saved data from GPS info about their on track performance.  And they look at the output and increase or decrease their on track speed per calculations of what is obtainable based on g input.  I’ve been taken back to a paper I’ve been into since it’s inception and I saved it again in a better form, which includes graphics.  I’ve again come to realize all the math and all the books are written based on over all or total grip being assumed, which makes them all generally useless.  And that’s because grip and going fast is a result of individual tires working with the track, not the total.  Sure this thread seemed to be started to discuss ‘slow in fast out’, which is based on total grip.  But on down and recently the thread starter indicated that is not what they were interested in.  I proposed a way to be faster then ‘slow in fast out’.  So far it’s not been shot down or argued against its validity.

I think it’s a great thread for a beginner.  If they dig into it the thread can be a starting point for concepts and they can less rely on empirical data based on inputs, which are not the reality of how things raced work.  I think it’s been a great thread.

I disagree with you there is magic.  Magic is a display of things real, but beyond normal understanding.  Do you have anything positive to say or did you get on here just to complain and cause issues.  So far non of us have had any issues with each others posts and are we are trying to understand each other.  I’ll tell you up front again, I really don’t know anything racing related as fact.   Can you help us out?

edit:

I just looked at your bio Greg and there was nothing there.  I then went to the corporation indicated in your signature.  WOW, you are someone who knows stuff and can help.

Can you shoot down my basic complaint about racing math that it’s based on total grip and not how individual tires work?  It’s helpful but I think when it comes to splitting hairs to decide who is first and who will be second, I think it falls short.  I think I now understand Rays original question to be one of how do you go beyond total grip advice.  I see his question now to be, ok I’ve been down the road of all aspects of ‘slow in fast out’ and it’s just not the final answer.

I’m saying the final answer is using each individual tire as needed at every point on the track, based on available grip, available hp, the need to maintain momentum and racing needs.  I’m sure you have drivers that just seem to do something special in the turns, which it’s hard to put into words.  What I’ve tried to do in this thread is present and try to define one driver skill that creates the little bit extra.

I’m not saying I’m correct on it.  But I’ve seed it applied out on the track.  I think it’s one of those obvious things which is there but you will not notice it, unless you look for it.

 

thanks and I hope I did not anger you

 

paul

Brake, Insert 'arc', Turn, Accelerate

[Paul Kish]

Greg Wright wrote:
Actually Paul, the method that I described will work regardless of HP, however the apex will not be in the same place.

Greg Wright
Rapid Racing Inc. “When in doubt Gas it, It won’t help but it ends the suspense!”

______________

DARN GREG WRIGHT… WHY THE HECK DID YOU GO AND DO THAT TO ME … :)  I was trying to get out of here gracefully. … :)
I was all set to not be back.  Until I set down tonight with a glass of liquid refreshment and fell deep into thought.  Actually it didn’t take all that much thought because I don’t put much thought into anything, anymore or any earlier.

anyway… I have a problem with zero’ing in on the changing apex depending on available hp.  I stated earlier my mind always sees available hp, available grip, the need to maintain momentum, driver skill and racing needs … in anything racing related.  That’s what makes this stuff so darn hard.

anyway again… If hp demands you must take a different line and it alters the apex, when ya have less available hp or more… doesn’t it also mean you were NOT running at the limit of grip when you had less hp and you could have been going faster taking a different line at the limit of grip? (I already see a problem with what I wrote, because there is no reason to take the same line as you would with more hp, because you cannot use the additional distance traveled to apply hp)… but I’ll just ignore it… :)

see how this stuff gets all mixed up but still together so tight everything relates to everything else?  … If you do…  I don’t … :)

just kidding.  Racing is an art.  It’s something that is beyond normal human comprehension and has to be demonstrated, the same as art in the form of a painting, a sculpture or a composition be it music or pros.

I’m good at questions, just real darn poor at the answers.

paul

 

________________

 

edit: after seeing where I had a problem with what I wrote while writing it, I’m going to have to go back and try to understand your last post a little bit better.

 

thanks again for the conversation and I think Ray, got a lot more then he asked for.  ain’t that what helping each other out is all about?

 

 

paul

 

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[Paul Kish]

Edit up front:  I’m posting this without proof reading it.  There’s no way I want to wade though all the bull and confusion I just wrote. … :)

 

And unless I have a reason to, I’m not going to read it later either.

 

 

Good morning,

Just had my coffee and without trying to just argue but giving reasons, I think my first feelings about the apex moving ‘only’ because of a hp change were correct.

I long ago gave up trying to remember everything.  When we got into kart racing we assumed it was not in our nature to take notes.  We never kept any notes except for a gear chart.  My son and I decided we would have to somehow learn what was needed to be done to fix the multitude of situations we would come into both on and off the track.   That’s not the quickest way to gain the skills needed to be fast.  Just on a side note being fast is relevant to the situation your in and nothing else.  Along the lines of the effort it takes to keep notes, there is the effort it takes to figure stuff out.  I long ago went through the I have to know all the numbers stage and found you only need to know an approximation of what is needed or have a correct direction to go.  I also long ago learned on here(the old on here) from Al Nunley about the importance of theory.  It’s not so much that a particular theory is important, it’s about having a direction to go in specific situations to get to a conclusion, weather it’s right or wrong.  With theory if you get to the wrong conclusion you can per what I learned from Al, go back and alter your theory.  With numbers if you get to an answer which does not fit the situation, there’s nothing to go back and change, you must create a new problem.  When racing we already have enough problems to deal with, without having to intentionally create new ones.

Mike, the first thing which shows up to me reading your post is I see conflict in your mind.  The conflict is because your still looking for specific answers and there are none in racing, only results.  And the only result even remotely acceptable to a racer is winning.

Here’s the conflict I see.  You presented a story from Road Atlanta where instructor Terry Yearwood was presented a question about the input needed to find specific answers.  Instead of getting into and discussing the value of data and being result orientated on the track, he answered with, “Yes you probably could or you could just drive through it 3 times and be pretty close to where you need to be.”.  You cannot go out and find the correct line and you cannot come in and calculate the correct line.  You must look for it, find it and have the skills to realize you found it, never forgetting it can change or a new line will emerge.   Those were the thoughts on one side of your head when you started into your reply.

The other side of your mind is still looking for specific items to hook onto.  With racing you can’t have it both ways.  There is no way to look at anything racing, you can only observe it and do it.  It’s no different then only being able to paint or look at a fine painting.  I think I got lost in the shuffle of writing and wandering off half way through in a different direction again.  Racing is so complex that specific facts cannot be combined to get an answer, which can be proven by a path of facts, to the answer.  I didn’t even understand the last sentence.

All that to say I 100% agree with your post.  And I’m only suggesting to be careful about facts because they can be all consuming.

 

on to screwing up trying to reply to Greg too.

 

Greg I think I’m correct about if the only change made was a change in hp and it demanded the apex be moved, the lower hp kart was not operating at it’s potential to apply hp.

I have a general rule number one.  Actually I have many rule number one’s.  Rule number one is:  You never increase distance through a turn, unless you either have the hp to take advantage of the increased distance or if the increased distance will allow you to get an advantage from maintained momentum.

If higher hp allows the kart to move the apex and gain speed, it can only be done if there was grip already available.  If the grip was there for the lower hp kart and the lower hp kart did not also move the apex out, it assumes two things.  The first is the lower hp kart did not have enough hp available to take advantage of the grip it already had and it assumes the lower hp kart was taking the turn below its level of available grip.  I assume anytime you have more grip then you can use, the excessive grip is eating into hp.  While writing the last sentence I automatically started as usual to pick apart what I was writing, as I always do.  It’s a plague.  My thought while writing was so what if you have extra grip available, it doesn’t mean you are using the extra grip.  My answer to myself was your racing on tires and it all boils down to tires and using each tire to do a specific job in the most efficient way.  Your only options for gaining grip with any tire are to either use more tire or to use a tire with more stick.  It doesn’t matter if you had more tire or stick, you will still be escessively eating hp and momentum with the lower hp kart and not be able to be running it at it’s limit.

Well as usual while writing the last sentence I started to bring more variables into it and question what I was presenting.  There is something which would allow the higher hp kart to be able to use the same tires which allow the lower hp kart to run at it’s limit of grip.  The thing or things are forces out on the track.  If the higher hp kart was able to take advantage of aero forces, then it could in deed go faster with the same tires that limit the grip of the lower hp kart.  In fact when a track slows down, the first thing you might think about even before gearing is how the reduction of forces out on the track will effect the speed at which the chassis is able to operate.  With a kart though gearing would be the first thing to deal with.

I don’t know if I made a case for showing that if hp was the only change made and it allowed for a different and more advantageous apex over the lower hp kart, the lower hp kart had to have been running below it’s available grip.  And then there’s the so what if it is, about the argument I’m making.

Oh well either way, I enjoy writing and just got two hours of enjoyment out of this.  I guess I should quit for now and go get something productive done today.

 

paul

 

and thanks for the conversation

Brake, Insert 'arc', Turn, Accelerate

[Paul Kish]

edit up front again:  I wrote this late after coming in from the track.  I’ll probably not read through it to edit or check it out until Saturday AM.   Not being a moderator on here I probably won’t be able to edit it after a set amount of time goes by.  So tomorrow if I have to edit it I’ll probably have to re-post it in an edited form.  I think and write pretty much ok anymore so it might just be ok anyway.  But for tonight, it is what it is.

 

Rob, I understood what you wrote.

“If you had a track where each and every corner was connected to the next by a long straight, then and only then could you look at each corner “in a vacuum”.”

Most every track I’ve seen this year is exactly as you described in what I quoted. … :)

We almost 100% now run LTO(left turn only) and a straight does indeed follow every turn, if you include both turns at each end as one.

But I do understand what you wrote.  We started out sprint racing boxstock briggs flathead and to this day have a track record in Senior Medium.  (the track is no longer in use)

Let me try to un complicated it.  To be fast in at your two turn left then right portion of the track, I think your saying there is a speed you can take the first turn which is slower then what is possible, which puts you on an exit line to take the second turn more efficiently then if you took the first turn with a “HIGHER” entry speed AND a “HIGHER” speed through the turn.

I deliberately related a higher turn speed to a “HIGHER” entry speed because you associated braking with over all turn speed.  I think the result of the higher turn speed in the first turn is it mandates the exit line from the first turn to the second, will cause you to be too slow through the second turn.  now that was truly complicated. … :)

Let me put some constraints on limit of grip.  Limit of grip is not just associated with speed.  It’s also associated with g’s or how tight you need to take the turn to put yourself on the line through the turn you want to be on.  You can enter a turn sharply at a relatively slow speed and be beyond the limit of grip.  Or you might enter a turn not so sharply at a relatively fast speed and not be beyond the limit of grip.  So, I guess we must put the limit of grip or be at the limit of grip, when entering a turn with the ability to put yourself on the line that you want.  In your scenario I will assume we are entering the turn at a speed which puts you >at the limit of grip< and you will be able to negotiate the turn at a 4cycle speed, which will put you on a line at exit that will allow for maximum speed through the second turn.  Right now you have the best of all known worlds.  You were fast to the first turn, you used your brakes enough so that you could take the first turn at the speed a 4cycle would flat out.

?   did I get the last sentence right ?

Ok it’s all good through the first turn.  Or is it good enough?

What I’m proposing is you can do exactly what you need to do as in the last sentence and still get through the constant arc turn faster.  What the point to my whole input in this thread is, is that your grip is limited on entry by your ability to turn. … I think I have that correct.

Your ability to turn is specifically limited by the capability of your outside front tire.  It nets out to you can’t enter the turn any faster then your “outside front tire will allow you to do”.

Do I have that correct?   If I don’t then there is no need for me to go on because everything from this point on will be false.

so I’ll stop here, at least for now.

 

paul

 

before I leave, if your reading on here Mike… how’d I do reading your mind? … :)

 

paul

Brake, Insert 'arc', Turn, Accelerate

[TJ Koyen]

I think this has been far overcomplicated. Shouldn’t you almost always be on the limit of traction whether it’s braking or steering or acceleration? Using all available grip possible at each second? If you are, it’s physically impossible to go faster. There’s no additional grip available.

Brake hard and you are using as much traction as possible to slow the kart. As you transition to turn-in and apex, you’re coming off the brakes and applying throttle. The grip is always at it’s peak if you’re driving on the limit, you’re just distributing it to different applications through a corner.

-ahem-

Driver/Coach/Wrench : Innovative Performance/Exprit
Owner : Oktane Visual - www.oktanevisual.com
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[Paul Kish]

I think it’s more complicated then just addressing over all grip.

 

Each tire has a function and ability which changes at different places around the track. It’s easy and basic to only deal with total kart grip. Total kart grip is not what defines the slow from the quick. The use and function of each tire at each place around the track is what defines the slow from the quick.  Total kart grip is only useful to find a baseline.

Is the statement below true?

Turn entry speed is limited by the grip of the outside front tire. Yes the inside front tire provides grip, but if your on the limit and loose grip at the outside front your done anyway.

 

 

 

Brake, Insert 'arc', Turn, Accelerate

[Paul Kish]

Eric,  Yes I think you are describing entry and exit into the area I’m trying to point out.

I’d like to say yes, yes and yes.

What I’m adding to it is once entered, you can use your skill again to slightly accelerate and cover the transition area at a speed slightly above entry.  You can do it because once you’ve entered the area and are no longer decelerating, the slight acceleration will quickly remove some use from the outside front and split it up more evenly between the outside front and rear.  The shift in use of grip will allow for both the slight acceleration and the maintaining of a higher speed, to when you apply normal exit acceleration.  What is key is it provides for the possibility of hitting your exact same marks on exit or even a mark more toward the inside of exit, at a higher speed then if you immediately switched from deceleration to acceleration.  It’s done every race by drivers and I think if you think about the watching of turns you have done in the past, it will click that you have been seeing it all along but not recognizing it.

 

Brake, Insert 'arc', Turn, Accelerate

[Paul Kish]

Rob, does it matter how long it takes to get somewhere on here as long as we get somewhere?

It’s hard to not sound like I’m arguing with you but I’ll give it a try.

 

Do you feel there is nothing that can take place between where deceleration entering a corner ends and acceleration from the corner begins?

I feel there is.

 

Are you saying to me it’s impossible not go from deceleration to acceleration instantly?

 

I’ll answer it’s possible to stop decelerating and maintain your speed, until you begin to accelerate.  With that being a possibility, what I’m explaining is you can take the exact same line as if you only maintained your speed after ending deceleration, at a higher speed.  You can do it because even if you entered the turn at maximum grip, once you end deceleration grip is instantly redistributed.  And if you have the driver skill you can take advantage of the instant redistribution of grip to accelerate slightly.  Allowing you to take the same turn, on the same line, with the same exit point,  at a higher speed.

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[Paul Kish]

Greg, … :)  I think Eric see’s it.  Why can’t you and Rob?  … :)

 

just having fun and trying to get yer head up off the table

 

I know how hard it is sometimes to see what’s right in front of your face.  I also know how it’s usually just about impossible to see something that’s right in front of MY face. … :)

please see this as only my dry sense of humor not being able to be confined

 

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[Paul Kish]

“1) It’s possible to maintain speed after decelerating, up to the point where you accelerate again, being at the limit of grip all the time – that should be obvious.”

 

The only thing to what I’m presenting is you can not only maintain speed after decelerating, because of the instant redistribution of grip after you end deceleration, you can travel the exact same path at a speed above your end of deceleration speed.

And to do it, the driver needs to learn how to do it.

 

Brake, Insert 'arc', Turn, Accelerate

[Paul Kish]

“How do you go faster on that same line if the kart oversteers or understeers when you accelerate?  You haven’t answered that question and how it applies to the ability to travel the “exact same path at a speed above your end of deceleration speed”…”

 

That’s the whole point to what I’m explaining, you can’t.  This all depends on circumstances. You can’t be on the gas because you would either be loose or push.  But you can travel an ‘x’ amount of distance at a speed higher then entry.  Entry speed, plus elevated speed through a portion of the turn to the point where you can fully accelerate, can at times be faster then entry speed and then apply as much acceleration as possible to where full acceleration can be applied.  IMHO, over all turn times with the same exit line, will always be better.

 

You all like math.  I’m saying there are times when you can average a higher speed over a similar but maybe not exact line and have the same exit line, by maintaining a constant speed through a portion of the turn.  You can do it over applying maximum acceleration through the same portion of the turn.  I know you want to say how can entering at one speed and then immediately starting to accelerate ever be slower, then trying to maintain a slightly elevated speed after entry.  It can because acceleration instantly demands a loss of grip at the outside front limiting rate of acceleration while turning.  And if your not on the fine line of maximizing slip ratio, your rate of acceleration is even less.

Sorry, I’m wandering off again.  I see your points and thoughts now.  I’m incorrect about the possibility I’m trying to show and I guess the only thing left is to say I’m sorry for wasting all your time.  Thanks for the conversation and thanks for showing me the errors of my ways.

 

paul

 

 

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[Paul Kish]

“I envision Broque and Ceaser sitting behind a keyboard giggling. Trolling.”

 

And I envision a wet behind the ears kid, with no manners nor proper up bringing.

 

I’d appreciate ending the name calling now.  If you have something to add to the discussion present it.  I’ve probably been on this board and it’s predecessor since before you were born.

I suspect my irrational thoughts have even had some input into the way, the front end of the kart you ride today is designed.

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[Mike Clark]

Paul,

It’s called maintenance throttle.

You will find you are quick to throw jabs. That is fine, but don’t whine about the push back. It is hard to have things both ways. If I am not mistaken English is not your first language, so that does not help us get what you say.

Also you never addressed my question about who would be the fastest.

I have found some of this info to be quite helpful. More so for me coming from a car back ground.

Thank you all and please continue if you can.

Mike Clark

[Mike Clark]

<div class=”d4p-bbp-quote-title”>Awesome post. This is a gem for me being so new to karting. I am at that point where I sort of get how to drive a kart but not 100%. I wish I had read it before ever getting into a kart.</div>
<div class=”d4p-bbp-quote-title”>TJ Koyen wrote:</div>
There’s no room for “magic” between deceleration and acceleration. You should be on the throttle as soon as you’re done braking in nearly every instance of corner. If you’re coasting, you’re slowing down. If you’re slowing down, you have to add wheel input to tighten the turning radius and maintain the same load on the outside tires. If you start losing load on the outside tires, you’re not only not using all the grip and going as fast as you can through the corner, but you’re allowing the inside rear to set down and you’re going to kill your exit speed two-fold. Also note, in sprint karting, you really only turn the wheel for a very short period of time. Just long enough on turn-in to get the inside rear to jack up. From there you should be straightening the wheel to roll off the corner and allow the lift of the inside rear wheel and the “spring” you’ve loaded in the frame to carry the kart off the corner.

<hr />

<div class=”bbp-reply-signature”>T.J. Koyen
OKTANE VISUAL – Custom Helmet Paint & Graphic Design
http://www.oktanevisual.com
————————–
DB Motorsports
Exprit/Leopard</div>

[Paul Kish]

All I can do now to start back in is to say I’m sorry and didn’t mean to offend or criticize others input.

I think I learned a couple of new lessons on here.  They are only present your own thoughts and only address the questions and comments of the original poster, without any reference to anyone else’s post.  Any time you reference or use anything from anyone else you are running the risk of angering others and are hijacking the thread and taking it in a different direction.

I will again try to present my observation, without referencing any other poster.  I’m sorry for doing otherwise before.  And I’m sorry it does not accurately address the subject of “Slow in Slow out”, because until this thread I had no knowledge of it.

______________________________

There can be something if needed and if the situation allows for it, between the end of entry deceleration and the beginning of exit acceleration or full acceleration.

Altering your entry line will alter your exit line.

Ideally you want to finish the straight at the highest possible speed, brake and enter a turn on a line which will put you on the best exit line. What you do in between is crucial to being able to exit on a specific line at the most advantageous speed.

Depending on what comes next after exit or during exit be it a racing situation, a straight very short or very long or another turn, you may or may not be at the maximum speed possible to obtain between entry and exit. But you still will want to be able to cover between entry and exit as quickly as possible and be on the best line at exit. The best line may be a line you need to complete a pass, it may be a defensive line or it may be simply the best line to obtain the highest speed until the next turn. What you do and can do between entry and exit is what will put you on the line you need, at the speed you want.

There is an actual line that can be taken on the track, that can be used between the end of entry and the start of exit, which is not a gradually changing line between where entry deceleration ends and exit acceleration is complete. It can be taken only if the driver deliberately inserts it between the end of deceleration and the beginning of acceleration.

The end of deceleration and the start of acceleration do not have to be an instant thing. A geometric ’arc’ can be inserted at the end of deceleration and before exit acceleration is started. The obvious way to insert the ’arc’ line is to slightly get on the gas and roll a little at entry speed. The ‘arc’ if planed for by the driver instead of going directly into acceleration, can allow for an even later ending of the entry straight and a change in exit line.

The rest of the point I’m making is the ’arc’ can be taken at a speed higher then entry speed. When deceleration ends, instantaneously grip is redistributed to the outside tires in a favorable way, where the driver can immediately accelerate. If the driver learns the skill to do it, it will allow for the ‘arc’ to be taken at a speed higher then their speed at the end of entry.

The potential net advantage is ending the straight later and with the slight increased acceleration through the ‘arc’ to it’s exit point, where full exit acceleration would begin. Because of the later entry and slightly elevated ‘arc’ speed time spent in the corner can be reduced. Because of the ‘arc’ nature of the line added between the end of the later entry and the beginning of exit acceleration, it’s possible to be on a line at exit you could not be on if you began your exit acceleration, immediately after deceleration. I’m trying to show the possibility of a corner line, which intentionally includes an ‘arc’.

Brake, Insert 'arc', Turn, Accelerate

[Steve Libretto]

Matt Dixon wrote:

Throw rain into the mix… After 3 days of seeing how the best drivers in the world in just about all classes and ages approach corners in the wet you would think it was magic. There was different entry speeds, turn in points and lines through the corners but most of the time they end up at the track out point excactly the same. Awesome to watch.

+1

I’ve wanted  to go see the Super Nats for years, and finally got there this year. It was amazing watching the racing in all classes both wet and dry. Awesome seeing the different lines in the wet vs dry, and also the varying lines used in different classes. Some GREAT racing going on throughout the event. It was certainly the best of the best out there!

[Author]

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