Home Forums General Karting Discussion "Brake, Insert Arc, Turn, Accelerate"

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    • #27064
      Paul Kish
      Participant

      I came back on here to give a thank you.  A while back I got involved with the “slow in fast out” discussion in the chassis and handling section.

      During the conversation and thought process I was able to put a definition to something I see most all the “fast guys … and gals” do, during a turn.  Simply put I see an arc being taken between braking and turn in and prior to the final turn leading to acceleration.  It first showed itself to me watching Winged WoO and Allstar sprint cars qualify.  There was this little something that most all the fast qualifiers did.  They didn’t look especially fast, they all just just looked similar, during a portion of the turn.  Since then I’ve looked for it in other types of racing and again I seem to see it everywhere as part of the total package of what’s fast.

      So thank you all for allowing and helping me to put a name or handle on what it takes to be fast.  To be fast, “Brake, Insert Arc, Turn, Accelerate”.

       

       

      Brake, Insert 'arc', Turn, Accelerate

    • #27176
      TJ Koyen
      Moderator

      I don’t really follow what Paul is trying to say, but it sounds like you’ve pretty much got the concept of what you’re supposed to do Daniel.

      Driver/Coach/Wrench : Innovative Performance/Exprit
      Owner : Oktane Visual - www.oktanevisual.com
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    • #27200
      TJ Koyen
      Moderator

      How can there be an arc between braking and turn-in? An arc can only happen if you turn the wheel. You’re saying that turning the wheel to induce an arc isn’t turn-in? And how can there be acceleration before “final acceleration”?

      From what I can tell, you are saying that because of traction limits, drivers over-slow the kart slightly as the grip transitions from braking to turning because you have to as you are using your front tires slightly to slow the kart, therefore you cannot be on the limit of turning grip. Am I understanding?

      In driving you need to make as few inputs as possible. You brake, turn-in, once the kart is “set”, you straighten the wheel and roll into throttle off the corner. The lift of the inside wheel will float the kart off the corner and you can keep the steering wheel straight.

      If you brake in a straight line, you are never using the fronts to slow the kart and all grip from the front tires can be used to turn the kart, offering maximum turning performance. But you can lose out on entry to someone who is trailbraking and braking later into the corner.

      I think you have a tendency to vastly overcomplicate this. It’s all a balance and there are many different ways to attack a single corner, let alone the hundreds of different corners out there. Some drivers drive harder on entry and give up some on exit, some drivers brake earlier and get on the power earlier and gain on exit.

      Driver/Coach/Wrench : Innovative Performance/Exprit
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    • #27234
      Ted Hamilton
      Participant

      ^^x2. you saved me the trouble of typing essentially the same thing…

      Paul’s observations were made on high-hp dirt oval winged sprint cars, which may not be analogous to sprint kart racing.

      I’d go see what the fast sprint kart racers are doing if I wanted to be a fast sprint kart racer…

      www.facebook.com/hamiltonhelmets/
      2014 Praga Dragon / IAME KA-100

    • #27259
      Dustin McGrew
      Participant

      I’m still trying to figure out how the style of racing a WoO car and a kart translate. I see no similarities other than going fast LOL.

      My opinion is if you have to mentally think about your corners as 3 or 4 separate things you’re going to be slow just because you’re doing too much thinking and not enough driving based on feel. IMO I think its best to keep it simple. Get on the track and follow someone. If they are faster than you going into the corner, try driving in deeper. If they are faster than you off the corner try getting on the throttle sooner or braking earlier to be able to apply throttle sooner.

      Its really all about muscle memory just like any other sport/activity. You don’t throw a great curveball by thinking about every single little thing in your wind-up or your grip on the baseball during every pitch. You throw a great curveball by practicing over and over and over and eventually perfecting the small details.

      More practice, more trial and error, less thinking.

    • #27542
      TJ Koyen
      Moderator

      I believe what you’re describing is known as “turning in earlier”.

      You can turn in earlier and hit the same apex with a softer initial steering input. That’s one way to drive.

      Ultimately, every corner requires a slightly different input technique. Mastering all techniques and knowing when to apply them is what defines a “complete driver”.

      Driver/Coach/Wrench : Innovative Performance/Exprit
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    • #27569
      Ray Zarick
      Participant

      Paul,I have watch your discussion on cornering, but haven’t much about any of your driving experiences. Much like TJ says about every corner may take a little different style, I find only driving will answer the question of what is the best line. Let me give you an example. Driving in 2006 on the Blue Max Kart Club track in Davis California in Tag Master against 12 to 14 other karts, I won nine races in a row. So you could say I knew the track pretty well. The following weekend I went back to see if I could improve my lap times. Using the same two race old tires and not changing the kart setup, I drove four 25 laps sessions. All I worked on was finding faster lines. I tried different entry, apexes and shorter lines. The results were that on the nine turn half mile track, I dropped my lap time a whole sixth/tenth (0.6). I have found the only thing that improves my driving is correct practice.

    • #27609
      Walt Gifford
      Participant

      Still don’t know what “insert arc” means.

      Gif

      FAA certified jet engine and aircraft technician,
      Nicholson Speedway class champion 2001,
      Yamaha KT100 Service Center,
      41 years karting experience

    • #27745
      Dustin McGrew
      Participant

      We have to be getting trolled.

    • #27753
      Walt Gifford
      Participant

      We have to be getting trolled.

      +1

      Gif

      FAA certified jet engine and aircraft technician,
      Nicholson Speedway class champion 2001,
      Yamaha KT100 Service Center,
      41 years karting experience

    • #28021
      Paul Kish
      Participant

      <span style=”color: rgb(68, 68, 68); font-family: Arial, Helvetica, serif; font-size: 12px; line-height: 21px; background-color: rgb(239, 239, 239);”>”But how can you travel at a faster-than-entry-speed rate at apex without accelerating? You can’t speed up without accelerating.”</span>

       

      If I said or implied to go faster then entry speed no acceleration was needed, I wrote in error.  I think or at least tired to indicate two different times in which acceleration would be applied.  The first is to gain a speed slightly higher then entry speed and carry it thru the “arc” portion how ever long or short it may be and the second is what I think any of you would consider normal acceleration onto the straight.  I’m not telling anyone to change anything if they do not like or disagree.  I’m suggesting a possible use of a technique I have never seed discussed on here or elsewhere.  If it cannot work then fine.  But if it can and you do not attempt to learn it, your throwing away speed.

       

      The the two IGNERT name callers on here.  Stick you troll name calling where the sun don’t shine.  And I hope a moderator can delete both your attacks and my reply here in this post.  I thought this site is generally without such attacks and it is only an over sight.

      Brake, Insert 'arc', Turn, Accelerate

    • #28414
      Greg Wright
      Participant

      Paul, how does your theory work in a flat out high G type of corner? Since you have admitted that you are not a driver this means a corner that is taken without lifting or braking but is a challenging corner.

      Greg Wright
      Rapid Racing Inc.
      Vintage B-Stock Pilot
      "When in doubt Gas it, It won't help but it ends the suspense."

    • #27154
      Daniel White
      Participant

      You lost me. Isn’t “insert arc” and “turn in” the same thing?

      I’m just an average club racer, so take this with a grain of salt, but generally one should, if the kart is set up well:

      1) threshold brake until you reach the point you want to turn in. It takes a while to be consistent, to not brake too late so that you end up understeering–pushing–through the apex, or braking too soon, therefore having to coast up to the turn-in point. You don’t want to start the turn-in too soon, which could result in a whole host of problems.

      2) turn in enough so that you lift the inside rear tire, not so much that you oversteer or bind up the kart, and not so little that the tire drops back down too soon, thereby bogging the motor and / or inducing understeer.

      3) roll onto the throttle, not so soon or so hard that the rear end breaks away (oversteer) on exit. This can be confusing because rolling onto the throttle too soon or too hard could also cause the rear of the kart to drop too soon, bogging the motor and / or inducing understeer rather than oversteer. Of course, rolling onto the throttle too little or too late simply costs you time down the next straight.

      When and how you roll onto the throttle varies with the charactersitics of the track as well as the characteristics of your motor. Usually, it’s started before the apex, and power comes on as you unwind the wheel, which drops the rear.

      Frankly, unwinding the steering wheel and rolling onto the throttle are aspects that overlap, and to me should be considered together, not as separate activities.

      Of course, one also needs to consider the turn AFTER as well, because you may need to give up some speed in one corner in order to make the most of the entire lap.

      I think one can be moderately successful doing just this, but some drivers are adamant that applying brakes while turning–trail braking–is preferable in some corners, so there is even more room for debate.

      I wish this sport was simple but it’s not.

    • #27181
      Paul Kish
      Participant

      I have no point other then to show there is something else which can be used somewhere in the process of taking a corner, which is not generally considered.

       

      Let’s make one assumption through out what you presented.  The assumption is your whole purpose is to be fast and to be fast you must run at the absolute limit of grip.  It doesn’t matter if your at the limit while braking, accelerating or in between braking and accelerating, your still at the limit of grip.  It’s easy to see and relate to being at the limit while decelerating or braking.  What’s tough to understand is the “in between” part and to bring in forces to the picture.  Slowing down forces are generally directed forward, putting more stress towards the front tires.  During acceleration forces are generally directed toward the rear, putting more stress on the rear tires.  You only slow down in the first place because forward forces stress the tires and the only thing limiting your acceleration is hp and stress put on the tires.

      If that’s ok so far, there is a point “in between” slowing down and accelerating when forces are shifting from front towards the rear, where because grip is split better between front and rear some acceleration can be applied prior to final acceleration and maintained during a period using a driving line which will be an ‘arc’.  It may be a very small distance measured in inches or it may be depending on the turn be measured in feet of travel.  It is also a tool used in addition to what you wrote to help set your point of final acceleration and exit.  Nothing at all changes your description of thought about how a corner is taken, it’s only something else which can be used.  The only reason it’s possible is because forces through a turn, at some time will redirect themselves from front to back.  And at some time in the process over all lateral grip will be higher then when either decelerating or accelerating.  It’s the use of the moment in time “in between” deceleration and acceleration to slightly increase and maintain speed on a line best described by an “arc”.

      I’m sure you can relate to some turns where you can and do roll the corner a bit.  I’m saying most turns can contain a portion where they are rolled a small amount  and during that time a maintained speed higher then entry is possible.

      _________________________________

      1) threshold brake until you reach the point you want to turn in. It takes a while to be consistent, to not brake too late so that you end up understeering–pushing–through the apex, or braking too soon, therefore having to coast up to the turn-in point. You don’t want to start the turn-in too soon, which could result in a whole host of problems.

      2) turn in enough so that you lift the inside rear tire, not so much that you oversteer or bind up the kart, and not so little that the tire drops back down too soon, thereby bogging the motor and / or inducing understeer.

      “>>>> maybe insert my BS above here. … :)

      3) roll onto the throttle, not so soon or so hard that the rear end breaks away (oversteer) on exit. This can be confusing because rolling onto the throttle too soon or too hard could also cause the rear of the kart to drop too soon, bogging the motor… (snip)

      __________________________

      “Frankly, unwinding the steering wheel and rolling onto the throttle are aspects that overlap, and to me should be considered together, not as separate activities.”

      And frankly to me. … :) , there is a possibility they do not always continually overlap.

      Brake, Insert 'arc', Turn, Accelerate

    • #27257
      Paul Kish
      Participant

      I just now read through what I wrote the other night and edited three words.  I took out the words ‘front’ and ‘rear’ when referring to forces working.   And I changed later the word ‘at’ to be an ‘a’.  Reads better to me now with the reference to front tires braking on deceleration and rear tires working on acceleration, removed.

      I realize your saying you don’t see it possible.  I’m saying it is possible and done.  I saw Dale Blaney do it tonight and set a new track record at Mercer Raceway Park.   A friend and myself were talking about it’s possibility before the race and we were not sitting near each other during qualifying.  He was at one end of the track and I was at the other.

      After qualifying I went to him and asked him if he noticed anything special when Dale was going through turns one and two.  He said yep and I asked him if the yep was about what we were talking about prior to the race.  He said yes and I said ya know what, I heard it and saw it in three and four; and I came down to talk to you to see if you observed it in one and two.

      You have to look for it happening or you will not see it and every driver is not able to do it.  It’s one of those things that when you do see it, at first you sort of won’t believe it’s happening and you’ll wonder if your tricking yourself into seeing it happen.  In my opinion, it’s real.  And in my opinion it’s not an obvious thing to see.

      First the driver for what ever reason, does have to make an effort to operate what their racing in a particular manner.  There either going to do it because they have found it to be fast out of experience or they have to be taught about the possibility of it occurring.  They also have to have the skill to do it.

       

       

      Brake, Insert 'arc', Turn, Accelerate

    • #27535
      Paul Kish
      Participant

      You might try this to see what I’m referring too.  Go to the driving line picture posted towards the bottom of the page, straighten or  change the ‘red’ braking entry line a little and add in a ‘blue’ arc of ‘what ever length you might see fits’ between the end of the ‘red’ line and the beginning of the ‘yellow’ line.  The blue line can be very short even in inches or it can be longer.  The ‘blue’ arc line will set up the possibility to do two things for you.  The first thing is it can change your ‘green’ acceleration exit line.  The most obvious thing it will do is to cause a portion of the ‘yellow’ line and portions of the ‘green’ line to become straighter.  It not only will allow for exit to start sooner on a straighter line, it can also allow for the entry line to be straighter up to the ‘arc’.  The second thing is what I explained previously in this thread, about because dynamic weight has been redistributed, a slight acceleration can be inputted and the whole of the ‘blue’ arc can be taken at a slightly higher speed.  You can end up with both longer straights, because of a straighter exit and longer straights because of a straighter entry.  Put together more time being spent going straighter and being able to take portion of the turn at a slightly higher speed and it’s a possible win win situation.  And isn’t this whole thing about winning? … :)

       

      Here’s the url on here to the posted driving line.  I understand the thoughts about break and then have controlled gradual acceleration to your exit line and I’m not knocking it.  I’m adding in another possibility to go fast, between the end of your deceleration and the start of your controlled finishing turning and acceleration onto the straight.  What happens if you gradually accelerate is your constantly at odds with either too much grip verses hp or too much momentum and hp verses grip.  It’s a fine line with one side of the line being loose or push and the other side of the line grinding off speed.  What I’m proposing is a way to run a portion of the line through the turn as a slightly elevated more easily controlled speed, once you learn how to put yourself at the elevated speed.  Or it’s not because this is all just IMHO and ain’t necessairly right anyway. … :)

       

      It’s a very tough driving skill to learn.  I know of a multiple track champion with years or racing and the holder of a record for the most ever wins in his class at a track, who is just now putting an effort into learning how to do it.  I think he use to do it but bad habits and age caught up to him a little and now he’s again making effort to learn it.

       

      ps… It doesn’t matter if you put yourself at the limit of grip and fast though hp, controlling grip or maintaining maximum momentum, fast is to be able to run at the limit of grip on the best line.  I’m just suggesting there might be a portion of the line, not usually looked at which may help being fast.  maybe ?

       

      ok here’s the url:

      Driving: Slow in Slow out

      Brake, Insert 'arc', Turn, Accelerate

    • #27580
      Paul Kish
      Participant

      Thank you all for the conversation.  I got up this morning with a thought which puts this out of the realm of sprint racing or road racing.  I am wrong trying to relate oval racing with far less turns to sprint and road racing.  I think now with the number of turns compared to oval racing and being able to put just one setup on the track,  the possibility of a sprint or road race kart running at it’s limit of potential is very slim.

      I can see now where compared to oval racing, sprint racing is very seldom racing at the limit.   I’ll guess  now most of the time sprint racing your glued to the track, with only maybe one or two turns on the circuit, able to be anything other then just a Sunday drive with gobs of grip.  Just don’t go too fast or turn too sharp or you’ll tip over, is the main concern.  But even so I do think the couple of turns at the limit, might be helped by inserting an ‘arc’.   It’s sure not going to help the rest of the turns, where excessive grip is the main thing your battling to be fast.

      Brake, Insert 'arc', Turn, Accelerate

    • #27583
      TJ Koyen
      Moderator

      Paul,

      I think your last post demonstrates the exact problem here. You seem to have very little experience in the realm of sprint karting.

      Sprint karts work and drive differently than any other race car. Not only do you have to consider the fastest possible line around a corner, but also what effect that line and every single steering and throttle input will have on the lift of the inside tire, which is what will make or break your corner speed. Then there are several different racing lines, defensive lines, lines to drive if your kart is understeering, lines to drive if it’s oversteering…

      I’m not sure where you get the “sprint karting isn’t on the limit” notion from. Or where you get the idea that we are always fighting to get rid of the “gobs of grip” we have. Or that we are just out cruising around for a Sunday drive.

      Driver/Coach/Wrench : Innovative Performance/Exprit
      Owner : Oktane Visual - www.oktanevisual.com
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    • #27593
      Bernie Baldus
      Participant

      Hey Paul.

      It sounds like everyone is arguing here, but more than likely everyone is in agreement.   That is the beauty.  A guy full of flaws can somehow win all the races.  Why?  Because he just drives.  Which means he drives the kart he has and the track he is on.  No 2 corners are identical but many corners are similar and the approach can be the same.  However, if the kart isn’t set up for it, then we have to adapt to make the kart work.

      As for WoO sprint cars, it really isn’t entirely different, but if they were to let go of the steering going down the straight the car would go left into the infield, so it is different.

      So, Drive the kart, drive the track, change the kart and drive the new kart and drive the track.  If the track changes, drive the new track and drive the kart.

      Remember, some people don’t understand what they understand.  They just drive and do quite fine with that sometimes.  If a person needs to understand, that is fine too and in the long run that may get them farther.

      We have to feel the kart on edge and drive it there.  Some do this better than others.  What you are talking about, if I am understanding you, might help you with the chassis setup.  Being able to break all this down can help with chassis setup.  And, IMO, getting a kart through the corner is always the same, whether 4 cycle oval kart, sprint circuit racing road racing, shifter or cadet etc… it all just happens faster or slower depending on the corner and the speed.  Some will certainly disagree with this, but that is my opinion.

      Since I have been driving karts for almost 43 years, I thought this might help in your thought process.

      I think about the kart in this way.  The weight on the tires rotates around the kart during a corner.  If you think of what happens to the kart when you scale it and turn the wheels you can see this.   And oddly enough, cross weights show up on scales whether they are for a kart or not.  Anyhow, I think of how the weights change as you turn the wheel and the order in which those changes happen.  This doesn’t necessarily make me a better driver but it could, and it could certainly make me look like a better driver if my kart is setup better than everyone elses.  I am going to oversimplify this, so no need for everyone to beat me up here.

      Take a left hand corner.  The wheel turns left, weight on the left front increases (also on the left rear but ignore that for now because I am thinking in microseconds) the weights then rotate clockwise around the kart and as the kart turns the weight shifts to the right/outside front then clockwise around the right/outside rear then clockwise around to the inside rear (which is unloaded if the wheel is turned.) but is the last to load as the wheel straightens out!  The beauty of a kart is making all this happen correctly.  This also works for me to identify an issue with the kart.  By breaking it down this way, we can possibly see an issue in a certain part of the turn and therefore adjust the kart or the driving to compensate.

      So, entering the left handed corner, you want to do your arc and the kart won’t turn in like it should, where is your problem?   You are turning into apex and the kart won’t turn, where is your problem?  You are mid corner and the kart is sliding, where is your problem?  You are coming off the Apex on the gas and the kart is sliding, where is the problem?  You are coming off the Apex and the driver in front of you yanks you off the corner, where is your problem?

      If you are mid corner and off the gas and sliding, where is your problem?

      The arc illustration link is probably a really fast line, particularly onto a long straight for a time trial, why?

       

      Peace,

      Bernie

       

       

    • #27689
      Paul Kish
      Participant

      It’s inserting a driving line which is an arc, between entry and the start of full acceleration.  The ‘arc’ driving line  is able to be taken at a speed slightly higher then entry speed.  It can be taken at a speed higher then entry because of dynamic redistribution of weight more evenly across the outside tires.   Normal controlled immediate change to acceleration on out to exit after entry, must be maintained on a fine  line of acceleration.  A little too much and your loose or pushing.  A little too less and grip will grab a hold of you and slow you down.   On the other hand if you can run a distance at a slightly elevated speed until your in a better position to make a straighter finial acceleration, total time through the turn can be reduced and time spent going more straight can be increased.  Instead of turning in and riding a ragged edge trying to get as much acceleration to the point where the straight takes over, you roll through the turn a little on a line which is an arc, at a speed slightly higher then entry, then make your final turn and controlled acceleration onto the straight.

       

      But if you read through this, you will find I accepted the fact that most turns will have more grip then needed and this will only apply to a turn where either limited grip to begin with,  hp or  momentum puts you at the limit of grip.  Any time you start to bicycle or are running on the edge of it, this does not apply.  You have to see it to believe it. … :)

      or maybe experience it?  Either way, take it all with a grain of salt because I’m not a driver, just an observer and bs’er about my observations.

      I have though in the distant  past raced in the rain.  In the rain are you “not”, prone to try to roll the corners as much as you can, in an arc?  And then trying your best to hold off acceleration until you have it pointing straight?  What I guess I’m adding to that is the ‘arc’ itself you take rolling the corner, can put you on a straighter line sooner.  maybe ?

      Brake, Insert 'arc', Turn, Accelerate

    • #27743
      TJ Koyen
      Moderator

      “It’s inserting a driving line which is an arc, between entry and the start of full acceleration.  The ‘arc’ driving line  is able to be taken at a speed slightly higher then entry speed.  It can be taken at a speed higher then entry because of dynamic redistribution of weight more evenly across the outside tires.   … Instead of turning in and riding a ragged edge trying to get as much acceleration to the point where the straight takes over, you roll through the turn a little on a line which is an arc, at a speed slightly higher then entry, then make your final turn and controlled acceleration onto the straight.”

      But how can you travel at a faster-than-entry-speed rate at apex without accelerating? You can’t speed up without accelerating.

      Driver/Coach/Wrench : Innovative Performance/Exprit
      Owner : Oktane Visual - www.oktanevisual.com
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    • #28231
      Bjork Denil
      Participant

      Paul,

      I have zero experience racing high performance karts, but I have some experience with motorcycles. What you are saying is taught there. Reasons are similar. You dont want the motorcycle leaned over through most of the turn trying to balance grip and limit acceleration.

      So the sequence looks like this on a motorcycle:

      1) traveling on the straight portion

      2) big push on the handlebars to point deep into the oncomin corner and set the braking line.

      3) reach end of braking line and another sharp input to point to acceleration line

      4) bike is still leaned, hard acceleration at this point which will automatically pick up the bike and set it on the exit/ acceleration line.

       

      in short, get the direction changed quickly, do not lean longer than you have to, so you can get the fat part of the tire working for you when the bike is upright.

       

      so for bikes there are indeed two curves that probably what Paul is talking about. Its above me to say whether it translates to karts

    • #28439
      Paul Kish
      Participant

      “Paul, how does your theory work in a flat out high G type of corner? Since you have admitted that you are not a driver this means a corner that is taken without lifting or braking but is a challenging corner.”

      I don’t know, try it and see if it works.

       

      If your able to put the pedal to the metal in a high G corner it’s not going to work.  It won’t work because your entry speed was slow because of being a slug on the straight, you have setup and grip issues, maybe driving issues or it’s a corner in the course where speeds are so slow there is no application there for it.  I think I prefaced in my first post entry will be at the  limit of grip.  If entry is not at the limit of grip, then it has no application.  I forgot how  seldom a sprint or road racer is actually racing at the limit. … :)  just havin fun with words.

       

      thinking about it some more.  If your on a track with 15 turns, unless your a really bad driver, are there really more then one or two turns where speeds are such you actually have a chance of loosing grip and  spinning or pushing?  My thinking is the biggest slow factor sprint racing beyond lack of hp is pushing and  if you do push it’s generally because you didn’t brake enough and has  nothing at all to do with driver skill at turn in or beyond.

       

      I’m not a driver now but I did drive and found out i’m not any good at it.  If it makes you feel better talking down to me, do it but it’s not necessary I will generally understand what you say relating to racing.  If I don’t I’m not afraid to ask for help understanding.

      ___________________________

       

      If there is no possibility of using this technique sprint racing, we  can easily end this now without any need for further conversation.  I’m confident what I presented or tried to present is a valid possibility.    If  it’s not then it’s not and sorry I wasted your time and others time.

       

      … but I  am correct. … :)    maybe?

       

      Brake, Insert 'arc', Turn, Accelerate

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