Home › Forums › Road Racing › AKRA coming to Road Racing?
- This topic has 42 replies, 23 voices, and was last updated 8 years, 2 months ago by Robert Lawson.
January 6, 2015 at 5:19 am #39938
January 6, 2015 at 5:47 am #39948David ColeKeymaster
I think its a good thing. The more road racing regional programs, the better. That is one of the problems we are facing IMO. There is no such thing as a ‘National’ series right now, which is fine. Racers just need to support their local or regional programs to keep the numbers going, and to introduce more and more people.
David Cole - EKN Managing Editor
January 6, 2015 at 9:21 am #39963
Sent my membership application into AKRA this morning.
January 6, 2015 at 3:57 pm #39991Kerry YunckParticipant
Once again the pie gets sliced a little thinner for Road Racing
January 6, 2015 at 4:21 pm #39994
“We have no intentions of starting additional races at this time as I stated above. We are talking with existing groups who are looking for options that better serve their racers and enhance their current programs.
January 7, 2015 at 1:33 pm #40049
I’ve been looking and reading over at Bobs. Until something of substance is offered it makes no sense to take sides on a statement that has no direction yet.
Bummer that these things are “released” as news before any real info we can use is supplied. Now, guys will start picking teams and throwing each other under the bus……poo-pooing what no one knows for sure will even take place.
I know this much, RR needs a kick in the nuts and a big wake-up call. Don’t care who does it or what logo they use. It certainly is time someone said enough, and made some changes.
Gonna wait and see…….
January 17, 2015 at 10:26 am #40604
Not very sure I see this as a positive move for road racing. With more regional series competing for the same racers, you have a smaller grid for both, and with the prices of track rental not getting cheaper, you will lose the premium tracks that everyone likes to race, such as what happened to Road Atlanta. What track would be next to drop out? Mid Ohio? It was already proven when they had a 2nd regional race there a few years ago, the entries didn’t support the expenses, and the Dart Kart Club lost money on it.
Road Racing needs help for sure, but not more fracturing. I say let’s see what the new President of WKA does, after the old regime has been removed. Give it a chance, and if you have ideas for improvement, send them to WKA, your Trustee, or I know there will be a new RR committee formed in the next week.
Van Gilder was in charge of operations at WKA and has left now. Did he leave Road Racing in better condition when he left? I don’t believe the entry numbers would show that he did. He had enough time and power to make positive changes.
January 17, 2015 at 12:34 pm #40607
We don’t go to Road Atlanta because they have concrete barriers. We lost a really good guy there.
Keith Lorentzen back in 2007.
January 18, 2015 at 6:01 am #40624
WKA continued to race there a few years after that incident, because I was there. Robby Harper was the promoter and quit promoting the race because the entries didn’t cover the costs.
January 18, 2015 at 6:25 am #40625
I agree Dale, I’m not convinced we need another org right now. Two organizations fighting over the same events isn’t going to help anything. You’ve been involved in road racing long enough to understand clubs and promoters are hanging on by their fingertips as it is. Adding a new org, with even a slightly different rules structure isn’t going to add entries. At least in my opinion it isn’t. And if the class structure and tracks are the same, I have trouble understanding what the point is. More track dates will not suddenly become available, and I suspect rental prices are not going to be reduced.
We’re all aware now that AKRA is going to add road racing and sprint racing to their program, but we haven’t heard anything else. I know WKC is open to hearing what they have to say, but until there is a MUCH better mouse trap, I suspect we’ll be staying with WKA. At least in the short term.
That is just my opinion, and is in no way a WKC endorsement one way or the other.
Have a good one folks. Let’s all wait and see. I’m just wondering how long we’re going to have to wait!
Clark Gaynor Sr.
January 18, 2015 at 10:21 am #40630Greg WrightParticipant
Just saw this on Facebook;
AKRA Welcomes Dart Kart Members
By Bruce C. Walls
AKRA Media and Marketing
The American Kart Racing Association (AKRA) is proud to announce the addition of the Dart Kart Club and their sanctioned tracks for 2015 to its membership ranks. Dart Kart Club, is one of the nation’s oldest and largest Road Racing clubs in the country. These high-speed racers compete against the clock as much as they do each other.
Primarily powered by 2-cycle motorcycle racing engines, these pilots compete on long road racing courses for specific time periods that end in fierce battles before the checkers wave.
Additional details, including their 2015 season schedule, will be announced soon.
Gene Davis, do you want to comment on this posting? Are Dart Kart Club races being sanctioned by AKRA in 2015?
Rapid Racing Inc.
Vintage B-Stock Pilot
"When in doubt Gas it, It won't help but it ends the suspense."
January 18, 2015 at 3:44 pm #40637
To me, it looks like AKRA will be there to support Road Racing no matter what happens with the WKA. Sounds like a win-win.
January 19, 2015 at 10:11 am #40668
At this point, it looks like the core group of individuals (DKC and Mr. Gilder) that actually did the work and took some financial risk (track rentals, etc) of making the WKA NRRS have simply left for the AKRA.
If the few remaining Clubs that supported the WKA NRSS remain, they will have a lot of work and responsibility. If not, the WKA may just loose road racing altogether.
Most were not around when WKA was formed. I can assure you, much of the same things that will be said here about this AKRA was said then about WKA.
Its just History repeating itself.
Personally, it doesn’t matter. DKC has always done a very good job with their events and I do not see that changing along side a new logo.
January 19, 2015 at 5:03 pm #40695Allen CoxParticipant
If the Dart membership is leaving WKA to run with the group that is heading up this AKRA, I guess I will not be returning to Mid Ohio or any other event they put on.
B-Stock / Unlimited
January 19, 2015 at 11:47 pm #40715George PetryParticipant
Allen, I’m curious why you would not race a Dart Kart/AKRA race? I’m not trying trying to get in you face or anything of the sort, This whole AKRA thing is new to me, and I’m curious what information you have that would cause you to have such strong attitudes towards these organizations.
January 20, 2015 at 4:34 am #40718
Its all about insurance and affordability.
With the WKA holding the insurance the clubs are having a tough time paying for the track and associated costs of running the race.
There is much more to it than the average karter sees.
January 20, 2015 at 5:03 am #40719Brian WilhelmParticipant
Anyone seen a 2015 WKA tech manual?
January 20, 2015 at 5:28 am #40721Linda BaldusParticipant
I don’t have a dog in this hunt but I just found out there’s a huge following with a lot of input from Bill McCutcheon on Bob’s 4-cycle about this subject if you’ve got a day to read it all. Here’s a link: http://karting.4cycle.com/showthread.php?41505-Akra-official-announcement
Keep on kartin'. llb
January 20, 2015 at 6:03 am #40727Jeremy BaldiParticipant
Since Dart Kart is my home club I guess I’ll be seeing what this AKRA is all about.
It hasn’t seemed like many racers have been committing to the WKA national series lately. Just to expensive to travel around. I can only think of a very low number of karters that have tried to go for a national championship in the last few years. Most have instead been just racing at their local club events and if those happen to be a WKA event than great.
Having said that I would think that it will be hard for DKC to get good numbers this year without WKA attached to their events. I hope that is not the case and hope that there is maybe something in place to make sure DKC can make good numbers this year and continue in the future. The AKRA says more RR will be announced in the near future. I am really curious what those races will be since it is kinda late to get track dates for this year.
I am also really interested in the rules. Like Brain said he hasn’t seen a 2015 WKA rule book and they already had a race. One would assume most rules will be the same so you at least have a good base to go on. AKRA better get a RR rule book out soon if they want anyone to prep a kart in time for their races.
Like most I have stayed closer to home the last few years and competed in races put on by DKC, CES, MKC, WKC and WKA. I am going to continue to do that and therefor will support any org that puts on a races within around 6hrs of my home. Hope to see lots of people at the races this year no matter who’s putting it on.
January 21, 2015 at 11:14 am #40831patricia hechlerParticipant
As I see this (and I am sure there are karters out there that don’t see it this way), the only individuals who put things on the line and take it in the shorts is the club itself. Poor attendance? Bad weather? High towing costs? The club pays the penalty. Not the WKA, not any individual employed by WKA… the club. I cannot fault ANY club for deciding to change direction and seeking different sanctioning. At the end of the day, it’s the club that has to cover the costs.
Please don’t boycott a track like Mid Ohio simply because you live and breathe WKA and you don’t care to support DKC any longer. This could not have been an easy decision to make on their part and unless you know what their ledger book looks like, don’t assume that they made this decision mindlessly or with malice towards WKA.
Care to dismiss Mid Ohio this year because of this? Care to show DKC your feelings with lack of attendance? Then realize, when next year comes (or the year after that), and Mid Ohio is no longer booking a kart event, that it was because if narrow-minded pride for WKA that caused Mid Ohio to fall off the karting map. Is that what you want? You want to show the sport that we can’t weather the change in tide? You care so little for getting to put your little kart on a grand track like that, that you’re willing to throw it down the toilet to prove a point?
My gosh, I hope everyone realizes that we are on a cusp of change that we can either just throw away totally or do what is necessary to make it flourish. You pick what side you’re going to be on.
I don’t mean to flame anyone, but I don’t want the sport of karting to look like we are a bunch of sixth graders.
January 21, 2015 at 11:30 am #40832Greg WrightParticipant
Well said Patricha, I agree 100%. By the same token I can almost guarantee that a percentage of the WKA stalwarts will be willing to cut off their noses to spite their faces.
If this affects DKC in the future it will be a true shame. Personally I am hoping for the best and have no true dog in the fight.
Rapid Racing Inc.
Vintage B-Stock Pilot
"When in doubt Gas it, It won't help but it ends the suspense."
January 21, 2015 at 5:18 pm #40853Austin HenryParticipant
Come on over and run with KART we are happy to have any of you
January 25, 2015 at 12:01 pm #41033
Damn, that was awesome!!! :)
Many good points, enthusiastic, non partial, and some ugly but necessary truths.
Partial to the Clubs but that needs to be understood. Without the Clubs there is nothing beyond that!!!!!
January 28, 2015 at 6:58 am #41225Kevin KannParticipant
I agree changes need to be made. As Patty says the narrow minded leadership at WKA has put road racing in the trouble it is in right now. That being said your talking about running with this new club AKRa which is now being lead by the very inmates that oran WKA into the ground… Does anyone relize the money that has been paid out to these very few individuals to run WKA into the ground? Including the money paid to a leader of Dart Kart Club in Daytona 2014 for use of a scoring system? Has that money shown up to the club of Dart Kart? I just have a hard time beliving everyone would welcome this change of name knowing what these people have done to WKA Road Racing the last decade and your willing to go right with the wolves down the same path? This is what has kept me from rejoing WKA because I cannot support an orignization that makes poor choices. Think about what your all doing before you welcome this old stall bad leadership of WKA to the “new” AKRA. And maybe AKRA was a well run club but if your bringing in the old guard who most disliked from WKA isnt this just WKA with a new name????
January 28, 2015 at 8:39 am #41233Brad AlanParticipant
I’m planning on running the Dart Kart club races this year. With that being said, and if infact the Dark Kart Club has elected to go with AKRA I’ll need the 2015 rule book.
I went online to the AKRA website to see that I need to call to get the 2015 rulebook. I have called the last 3 business days (left a message), with no return phone call.
Does anyone have the 2015 rule book? If so, how’d you get it.
Also, can someone confirm if the Dart Kart Club switched from WKA to AKRA?
March 17, 2015 at 7:25 pm #44312Matthew TangemanParticipant
@ Kevin Kann,
Are you sure that the people who left WKA to start AKRA were actually in a position to ‘run it into the ground’, or were they as frustrated as you or I am and not able to let good ides come to surface because the WKA President and his minions insisted that things be a ‘certain way’?
Until; AKRA proves otherwise, I will take them at their word that they will be closer to the needs of the racer, and not WKA’s insurance partner.
January 28, 2015 at 9:14 am #41236Gene DavisParticipant
Kelby – Yes DKC has switched to AKRA for 2015. If you have a kart that is legal to race WKA it will be legal in AKRA.
Kevin – For your information my wife and I were paid $50 more to score than last year. What I was not willing to donate was my time in doing all the pre registration. Printing of all the registration forms. Printing the tech forms. The reconciliation with WKA after the event. Posting of information to mylaps. Paying for the internet connection for race monitor. We drove to Daytona instead of flying. That saved WKA approximately $1,200. The reason we drove was so I was sure the scoring system made it to the race. Would have been in a major jamb if the airlines would have lost the system. WKA had plenty of time to find someone else to handle what we did.
As for running road race in the ground not sure what you are referring to. In 2014 the total entries were down 32 from 2013 for the year. That includes 6 races rained out at Daytona in December 2013, and a total rainout of Sunday at VIR.
If you want to talk about this personally instead of on an open forum call Mr. Harper he has my contact information.
February 20, 2015 at 5:51 am #42667
Does anyone know when WKA will release their Road Racing schedule?
In years past we knew around the first of the year.
Do they plan on replacing the Dart races?
February 20, 2015 at 6:15 am #42682
Yes Eric there will be a replacement for one of the DKC events. We’re just waiting for confirmation at this point before announcing anything. Hopefully in the next few weeks we’ll know more.
That’s for the inquiry,
March 11, 2015 at 9:16 pm #43887Keith BuffoParticipant
“Yes Eric there will be a replacement for one of the DKC events. We’re just waiting for confirmation at this point before announcing anything. Hopefully in the next few weeks we’ll know more.
That’s for the inquiry, Clark Sr.”
Clark, anything to report about the status, where and when of this pending race? If by replacement you mean to fill the gap in the spring, it would be helpful to know now. Thanks!
February 20, 2015 at 6:20 am #42683David ColeKeymaster
Schedules are HERE
David Cole - EKN Managing Editor
February 27, 2015 at 11:23 am #43126
If you check the DKC site the addition of the 4th event of the AKRA series has now been announced.
This works very well for me, I’m in!
March 2, 2015 at 6:56 am #43275George SunderlandParticipant
Few folks still around remember when WKC left WKA (sort of) in the early ’80s. For awhile WKC bypassed WKA for its club races and got its insurance directly from K&K. Road Racing survived. In fact that was in the midst of its mid-80s hey days. Most dirt trracks I know are now exclusively AKRA. Mostly because WKA insurance costs drove them away. And AKRA has taken the lead on rules for clones. I don’t care what the name of the org is. All I know is we need long-term stability in rules and classes as well as all things road racing. Otherwise the only thing left may be the nonsense mega rich dad fart smelling contests featured on “Kart Life” which nobody I know cares to be a part of……..
March 10, 2015 at 11:01 pm #43805Bernie BaldusParticipant
A big source of instability has left WKA and is now at AKRA.
Good luck to DKC, really, they are good people with a large following and I hope it works out!
March 12, 2015 at 6:30 am #43894
I can’t say anything officially, but it will likely be an event in June. It should be announced on the WKA and/or WKC website shortly.
March 16, 2015 at 7:22 pm #44222
Certainly, I can’t say I haven’t noticed the same things as Kevin, but I have to ask this. Seeing how that problem has gone on for decades, probably longer, so many people, big and small fired, then blamed for the problems. How is it there is a post on Bobs this weekend from a WKA offical, I quote’
” “The good news is that way of thinking is gone at WKA. Those people are now running the AKRA series. ”
Blaming this round of problems on the current group who left, so Really after all these rounds you guys haven’t found a group yet capable of running this without problems. Maybe, just maybe, the problem is bigger, maybe its because running WKA falls on the shoulders of a group of trustees. FOr as long as I have been around, my trustee has been a Man Cup person. While there have been many, none ever knew much about Road Racing, 4 cy, ovals or dirt, again they were strictly Man Cup people. That doesn’t make them bad, but it doesn’t make them qualified to run the other series. Then of course we have to get to running the business of WKA, which needs to be done by business people etc.
The comments made here about have Van and Rick made RR’ing better or worse, which sounds like he means entry numbers really addresses very little.
Other then fighting the cost of gas/travel etc everything faces, I think RR has held on well. M Cup of course has gone right down the crapper because of direct challenges from several other groups. G cup and both oval series I think took the hit well before the Rick and Van show took over.
I think the most important question, and I really don’t have the answer is this, Did Rick and Van dig WKA out of a very deep financial hole., What I hear says, yes and put some serious money in the bank for WKA. Too me while WKA never have been very public about money, this show that they did do a good job of handling what needed to be done. Again to me, thats a good sign of leadership
Now If your following along at Bobs, you know I have been asking if there was any kind of statement made by Mr Ferris. I never heard of him until 2 months ago. What is his background, is he a road racer? what is his business experience? so far not a word. Again if following at Bobs, AKRA makes announcements, As does Dart, and CES. This alone does not make the new WKA look good.
March 16, 2015 at 8:21 pm #44230
It’s always great to hear such positive feedback Bob.
Clark Gaynor Sr.
March 17, 2015 at 6:33 am #44244
Really Clark, as a WKA offical thats your answer? Where is something from Mr Ferris, where is the new business plan, where are your races going to be, whats coming in the midwest, what was the outcome of the brake rule vote and how did the trustees vote?
Exactly what has been said by WKA that I can give any positive feedback on?
In the roughly 2 months since this has gone down, AKRA has put together a Sprint and Road Race program from scratch, and announced it.
Dart has separated from WKA, put together their own game, and announced it.
CES/Tag has adapted its rules package, got together with the above groups and now has all racing here, on the same page, and announced it.
WKA has, well I guess been offended by my posts.
Respect is earned by your actions, show me something impressive and I’m your best friend
March 17, 2015 at 9:01 am #44256
I do know that John Ferris addressed the drivers meeting at Daytona, and there is an interview that is being done by David Cole of EKN that will be published about the future of WKA. As for an exact day that will be put out, I will let David Cole announce that. All divisions of WKA are being reviewed and plans being researched to improve all series. If you have any positive suggestions for the Road Race Series, they are always welcome to myself or my committee members. There are some notes in the minutes talking about future of WKA.
There is a schedule of Road Races on the WKA website. There will be an announcement of Woodbridge Kart Club adding another race to the National Schedule. While the schedule was being made, the traditional dates for Mid Ohio, and Grattan were being held for the Dart Kart Club to sign the contract that they had in their hand. Gene Davis decided to lead the board of directors of Dart Kart Club into voting for going with AKRA. I myself, and others on the Road Race Committee, tried for several months to secure the race as a WKA National, but those efforts were rejected by Gene Davis. When all of this happened it was late to be adding additional tracks to the schedule, as most tracks already had their dates booked for this year during the open dates left by the races that had been blocked for Grattan and Mid Ohio. I am sure next year there will be other races looked at in the Midwest areas. I for one living in Missouri would love to have races closer to me as well.
As for the brake rule, as it has been published in a WKA Pit Board announcement, and on the website, the dual brake requirements were lifted from 5 classes including the Tag classes, Stock Leopard Sprint, and the Pro Gas Animal class, and the Animal Limited Modified class, when following the Gold Cup chassis rules as in the Pro Gas Animal class. Minimum brake rotor size is 7 inch by 3/16 thick. When the Trustee minutes are posted later today, You will be able to see who voted for and against the proposal.
As for the AKRA miracle happening over night, that is not the case. Those plans were being made last fall, with Van Gilder, and Gene Davis working together, along with recruiting at Daytona. After looking at the class structures they are offering, it looks like a cut and paste job of the existing WKA classes. Will that be how they produce the rest of their rule book?
As far as something to applaud, KART will be joining the NCM race at Bowling Green, KY. That will result in a much larger race field in many classes!
WKA can and will do great things with positive input from the racers, and your attendance at those races! I welcome all input! email me, or ask for my phone number.
WKA Road Race Committee Chairman
March 17, 2015 at 12:18 pm #44284
Dale, nice to see things are starting to get posted. I think you will find, I’m not the enemy, I just push, sometimes hard when it seems things are stuck.
IMO Karting needs to be run by one strong national group rather then this mess we have now with so many different groups. I have no doubt that at least some at WKA still feel they hold that position. Seems to me that at least oval and 2 cy sprint have moved on, now RR’ing is splitting. Other groups are vying to take over the sport. Now this is just my opinion, but based on what I’ve seen over the last two decades If WKA continues to operate as it has, things will not change. Thats what has cost so much
Let RR people run their series, let sprint people run theirs. I am not against elected trustees, we (racers) just need to make our choice for the series that WE race in, not have other make the calls for us. In other words I would vote for a trustee for RR. A sprint person would vote for their trustee to run M Cup or G cup. Geographic boundaries have no bearing on anything anymore.
I am watching for you minutes to be posted, we will see if the brake decision was voted in based on what RR’ers said, or what other series people thought was right for us.
The ruling I just read really doesn’t make sense to me. Yes you kept the dual system on Animals, but you removed it from all the Tag or Tag type classes. Those guys are not only faster then us, they race in our group, so if there is a failure, I guess we could still be in it.
Now for the one that really doesn’t make sense. Stock Animal, 11 hp, 96 mph has to have the dual system. Thats our slowest class. Limited Mod, 16 hp 112 mph, only needs a single system. Please explain the logic here.
March 17, 2015 at 4:13 pm #44301
You will start seeing regular updates now. There was a transition period between person that was doing that before, to the person responsible for doing it now. You will also be seeing a completely new website coming very soon with more information, and easier to navigate. I know you are pushing for info, and probably truthfully, there is info waiting for pieces to fall into place, and other delays, that I wish we could get out. I make calls to try and get the info out as well. I would expect the Trustee meeting minutes to be posted either sometime tonight, or tomorrow. I wish they had been posted last week, but there was a lot of detailed information discussed that needed correct reporting, before they were approved.
I totally agree that Karting needs one strong organization that makes the right decisions for all of the series. There is strength in member numbers. When I started karting, most enduro racers came from the sprint side. They wanted more track time, faster speeds, less contact, etc. So Road Racing needs those tie ins to the dirt and speedway groups.
The brake proposal was started by me, a road racer. I brought it up to the RR committee, comprised of 7 people, representing laydown, and both 2 cycle and 4 cycle sprint road racers. I personally wanted more classes on the 4 cycle side to be single system eligible. I want to say at no time did we ever say you have to remove dual brake systems by rules in any class. We only created classes that they were optional. The 2 cycle sprint racers spoke up and were wildly in favor of single brake systems on the CIK karts, so they could both sprint race, and road race without adding $1000-1500 systems. There is a solid foundation that this works, because it is legal to do up through the TAG classes in IKF, KART, CES, and MKC. This will allow more sprint racers to give road racing a try. When it came to the 4 cycle laydown sprint guys running the narrow karts, they spoke up and said they did not want to have single systems allowed on those karts. So therefore, you see Stock Animal requiring dual brakes. The Crossover classes from the Gold Cup, that are running GC legal karts, may run the single brake systems to encourage them to try road racing. So that turned out to be the Pro Gas, and Limited Mod Animal classes. Would I have liked to see the Stock Animal class remove the requirement? Yes, absolutely. And we can do that later, if people speak up for it. So I believe you got a rule change that was started, written and approved by road racers, that received unanimous support in the committee, and was then recommended to the Trustees. Personally, I feel the procedure worked in the manner it should have, by starting in the committee, and working it’s way up without interference from above, until it made it to the Trustee level. We made numerous inquiries to the racers for input. We got it, and listened to what they had to say. Was it a perfect change? No, as you mention, the slowest kart on the track still requires dual brakes.
The result in the change of this rule will allow racers from IKF, KART, CES, and the sprint tracks to come and try road racing and increase entries. Isn’t that what we all want? Remember, if you make the rules for only the existing racers, you shut out a lot of potential road racers, that might be long time road racers in the future.
March 17, 2015 at 5:52 pm #44305
Hey Dale, If the CIK guys don’t want to pay $1500 for a set of brakes, tell them they can buy a complete American chassis for that, take the brakes of and throw the rest away……..OK I bet those guys don’t like the 4 cy sense of humor.
I understand that if asked some people may agree to relaxing the safety rule to bring more people into their world I be willing to bet those people never had the job of getting people off the wall, that wern’t going home that night. In my years at RA,I had that job, twice. It does change you way of thinking.
So where do you draw the line? Cloans and LO are considerably slower, at Blackhawk we lap LO206 in a 15 min race. I don’t think we have any cloans
Now Tag or any of the like classes. They are a bunch faster the BP Animal on the straights, no question, but we do not slow down near as much in a corner as they do.
So was the decission on which classes were to be involved based solely on wanting to bring in new entries? or was safety/speed considered? From your post above it states that it was unanimous among committee yet you refer to limited and I believe you guys thought it was a CIK body G cup class You also refer to BP Animal as the “the slowest kart on the track ” from the 4 cy side, its the second fastest behind Limited. To me, its seams clear that other then Jack, I doubt most of the Comm. understand our world deeply. Thats not a slam because I’m the first to admit, I don’t understand TaG or laydown, but I would never try to make rules for them.
Dale we both know, this is done, it doesn’t matter anymore, WKA has done as they saw fit. My best hope is it gave people something to think about
March 20, 2015 at 5:45 am #44474
Clean up in aisle 3……can we get a Moderator here?????
Looked in for new info and got Bobs 4 cycle instead?????
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