July 21, 2014 at 8:23 am #30675
At the risk of public flogging, I’d like to bring up the 99 vs 01 debate as we haven’t seen one in a while. I’m not even sure there is much of a “debate” anymore as the cylinder of choice at the highest levels appear to be the 01. Rather, I’m curious as to what would be the best decision for SKUSA to make in order to achieve the goal and intent of the “stock moto” class. I am very impressed with the decisions SKUSA has made regarding the timing plate and new pipe and hope they will make a decision surrounding cylinder selection. It’s not an easy decision as no matter what it will likely cost someone but in my opinion, a decision should be made. It is my understanding that the issues that brought the 01 into the picture in the first place (lack of 99 supply), are no longer an issue.
In my opinion the 01 is not the way to go as the cost is higher and it sounds like it is more prone to needing replacement due to detonation issues.
SKUSA, please make a call… I simply do not see how having the choice benefits the class…
July 21, 2014 at 6:02 pm #30691Chris BanyParticipant
I’m far (location and talent) from any SKUSA events …but is there even a question or rumor at this point of SKUSA going away from ’01 cylinders?
July 22, 2014 at 7:00 am #30708
I haven’t heard anything remotely close to a rumor or confirmation that this would be true? I hope something is in the works… :)
July 23, 2014 at 7:23 pm #30782
Chris – Don’t sell yourself short on the talent end of the equation – location maybe yes. You are always fast!
Patrick – I run a -01 and a 99. If the 01 is jetted properly detonation is not an issue that I have personally experienced. I have run both MRC and DDR 01’s over the years.
The 99 shortage occurred around 10 years ago so it really is not impacting the decision at this point.
A rule change regarding cylinder at this point would just piss a bunch of guys off, 95% of Skusa members (S1, S2, S4) are running 01 at this point. Most guys probably would prefer not to add another $1000 paper weight to their engine graveyard collection :-)
MRC and DDR seem to have the formula solved on the 01 tuning. I am sure the ST guys have it dialed in now as well. The engine failures at this point are probably a by product of tuners continually pushing the limits on performance.
Just my opinion – I am a old slow guy so take it for what it is worth. Karting is still the 2nd most fun thing I get to do without getting in trouble. However sometimes the wife thinks I prefer karting to the 1st thing.
July 24, 2014 at 8:44 am #30807
Thanks for the input! As much as I would like to be part of the crowd that wouldn’t need to make the change, I still believe a call needs to be made with a transition plan. This dual cylinder option seems like it would hinder the growth of SKUSA as it unnecessarily presents two options with one being more expensive and the perception that one has better performance. For those on the fence whether or not to participate in SKUSA events, having to consider making an investment in a new cylinder (assuming most non-SKUSA participants run 99’s) doesn’t help.
I agree that no matter what the decision someone is going to be pissed off but this didn’t stop SKUSA from starting to reduce the number of TaG motors. I’m sure SKUSA doesn’t like to make these decisions but I commend them for doing so.
July 25, 2014 at 8:09 am #30835
The 99 is more reliable, but at the national level parity IS an issue at the pointy end of the field. The 99 is fastest when on the edge, but one jet to lean an things dont break, it just slows down .
The 01s are VERY consistent from cylinder to cylinder… but if they are too lean, they break parts. And they run best while they are on the verge of breaking.
I think this is an easy fix. Raise the octane of the fuel so instead of detonation the motor slows down when its too lean. it still needs to be jetted right to win, but instead of breaking parts it just slows down.
July 25, 2014 at 10:12 am #30852Chris LairdParticipant
I’ve heard that you want to run the lowest octane rating possible without detonating. If this is true, and the 99’runs perfect on 98 octane, wouldn’t it “lose power” with 110? If that is true, wouldn’t it make the reliable 99 a paper weight?
July 25, 2014 at 12:04 pm #30857
If the 01 is the cylinder of choice going forward than I hope it would come with changes to allow for the 01 to become as robust as the 99. Fuel change, CDI change, and whatever will make it more reliable.
At the end of the day I just hope a single cylinder is selected and can end this debate…
July 25, 2014 at 1:30 pm #30861
way more complex than that.. but generally, more octane doesnt make the engine faster.. just makes your wallet emptier.
110 octane and 98 octane racing fuel (all things else equal within reason) make the same power on a 99… and an 01.
July 25, 2014 at 3:28 pm #30876Charles SkowronParticipant
That’s interesting. Here I thought the reason that most national stock moto racers run the ’01 was because it offered more top-end power (or at least performance) than the ’99.
But what I’m gathering here is that the ’99 and ’01 offer the same performance basically. It’s just that there is more equality between ’01 cylinders than there is between ’99 cylinders. In other words, less chance of getting a bum cylinder with the ’01s than the ’99s?
July 25, 2014 at 9:19 pm #30889Jimmy McNeilParticipant
Charles, theirs a reason every S1 driver at the ProTour will be on a 01 cylinder and its not to save money. The 01’s are faster.
“For those on the fence whether or not to participate in SKUSA events, having to consider making an investment in a new cylinder (assuming most non-SKUSA participants run 99′s) doesn’t help.”
I agree 100%, problem is, the damage is done. Close to all Skusa drivers are on the 01 and im sure Skusa doesn’t want to piss off its base. They needed to make a decision over a year ago, if they did it now, people would be very upset. When I invite people to try out a SKUSA event, they don’t want to spend the $$$ to upgrade to the 01 cylinder, and feel they wont be competitive on the 99.
Higher octane fuel would help the 01’s, it prob wont help the 99’s, if anything it will be a wash or slow them down. Engines run best on the lowest octane fuel you can use without detonation, the 99’s don’t detonate with ms98 so 110 prob wont help performance. IMO 110 octane would be the last nail in the coffin for the 99,s. Prob not a big deal, 99’s are all but extinct at any SKUSA event.
If SKUSA’s ok with having an all 01 cylinder series, then I agree, switch to 110 octane.
July 26, 2014 at 10:06 am #30925
Jimmy what would you say the difference in lap times would be at a track like Button Willow between a 99 and a 01 if all other things were equal. I know you have run a few thousand laps there so I am sure you have the data.
My 01 definitely feels faster than my 99, however, it is hard to say at the track I run at in Orlando because it really does not have a long straight and it has really tight corners + I can never seem to run the same lap twice there. My lap times are fairly close between the two engines, one being a ST99 and the a MRC01.
Also a side not – at SN last year in S4 Fisher had the 2nd fastest lap in the final running a 99. He ran a 45.327 VS the fast lap for the race at 45.311, pretty much a blink of the eye. So
Is the 01 is worth 3 to 4 10ths at a track like Vegas with the long straight similar to BW?
July 28, 2014 at 6:35 am #31029
The 01 FEELS a lot faster.. but lap time wise it simply is not. What is true is that if you grab 10 random 01s, and 10 random 99s.. drove all 20 cylinders.. the 01 would be faster.
But grab the best 01 and the best 99 from those, and they will probably run similar lap times. Anybody that says a 01 is 0.4 sec slower on a “normal” sprint track has a TERRIBLE 99.
it feels faster because its torque curve is has a positive slope, vs flat.. so the 99 just hums along and the 01 keeps pulling harder and harder.
I think the 01 is better for racing, but they need to fix the reliability problems.
July 28, 2014 at 8:44 am #31038
Track configuration is also going to be a factor at some point. Longer tracks should be dominated by the higher exhaust ported 01 if both cylinder options are jetted to satisfaction. You just can’t beat .040 higher exhaust no matter what you do, it’s straight up more RPM range equaling more top if geared for it.
110 fuel would help save the 01 from destruction but as noted above it would definitely be the end of any reason to hang onto the 99. Who’s to say that once 110 is offered the 01 tuner won’t just lean on it even more gaining power until it again moves into detonation range.
July 28, 2014 at 8:53 am #31039
With enough octane (or lack of timing, etc), the 01 should slow down when lean before getting into nasty detonation we see now. Now the motor is fastest while slightly detonating. based on my dyno work on the ’99, the engine was best when ‘right’.. slightly lean made less power.
And I agree Chris.. on long tracks, the 01 should be better. But even at DKC( fairly fast) and at S-nats, they are pretty damn close.
July 28, 2014 at 9:35 am #31042
For years we have ran 110 in road race with the 99 stock stuff and in the past if you were running open moto with 99 motors the first thing you did was jack up the exhaust like the 01 again all on 110 fuel. All that being said if you lean on the motors with 110 you can detonate any of them especially with more exhaust. It’s such a fine line between being lean and feeling it slow vs tearing up pistons and heads that I doubt many regular people would notice it on track before they were into the wallet.
To me the 110 is a band-aid for the problem, I think the timing should be backed down on the 01 but like you guys have stated before SKUSA is deep in with this issue now so it may be too late. Timing adjustment until equal and safe or individual 99 and 01 classes.
July 28, 2014 at 10:13 am #31043James McMahonParticipant
The 01 was allowed when the 99’s had a shortage some time ago. What’s refueled the already fiery debate recently was a temporal shortage of ’01’s this year.
If the fuel change was made for 110 (107 MON?) I wonder how long before builders come up with clever ways to make the most of it?
July 28, 2014 at 4:46 pm #31071
Thanks for the feedback. You are correct the 01 just seems to pull harder and longer. I personally think the 01 is easier to drive – I know most have argued the opposite.
Interesting observation on the 99- 01 cylinder selection. I only have two 99’s and one 01 so i really am not an expert on the deal. My lap times are similar on both as i mentioned I just feel faster with the 01. The Orlando kart track has a short straight so the 01 advantage is somewhat limited.
I would still like to hear what Jimmy McNeil has to say about Button Willow comparison. The BW track has a long straight so It would be interesting to know the difference in his times, he may not want to give the data though.
Good luck in Modesto this weekend.
July 28, 2014 at 9:07 pm #31077Jimmy McNeilParticipant
Jim, my first day ever on the 01 stuff, I was matching my times set on the 99. Buttonwillow was slick that day so it may have favored the 01’s. Honestly I think the 99 is a pretty good cylinder for a gripped up buttonwillow. Always plan on back to backing them on a race weekend but just never have the time.
I did a back to back session at Tucson last year, wasn’t even close. Don’t remember the exact time difference but I boxed up my 99 cylinder and put it in a cabinet labeled “road racing” lol.
“I think the timing should be backed down on the 01”
Prob only good solution if you want to keep the 99 in the game.
July 29, 2014 at 8:35 am #31112James McMahonParticipant
Separate ’01 and ’99 timing plates then?
July 29, 2014 at 9:14 am #31114
Let’s say SKUSA comes up with a way to achieve more equality between the 99 and the 01 and they were successful, wouldn’t this end up phasing out the 01 seeing that it’s more expensive? If you owned an 01 would your response be to continue running it until it was damaged or would you call it a day and buy a 99 and sell off your 01?
If it were to take a timing plate, CDI, different fuel, etc, does it really make sense to do this rather than just cut bait and focus on one or the other?
July 29, 2014 at 9:56 am #31115
In the end it’s about keeping a class structure alive not about what would happen to one particular motor package especially in a case like this where it’s pretty much the same motor. Affordable racing motors for all vs burn it down to be competitive with the top 5% combinations (exaggerated some but close to true). Open moto was the class for do what you want, pay what you want, buy power if you feel you need it… that class is gone because of no limitations. From the outside looking in 01 stock is starting to look like that class again. It’s normal for karting to do this though and history will repeat itself again as it always does with this or another class.
In the case of the 01 becoming a more stable motor with whatever adjustments I’d imagine the cost to build would go down some or stay stable in order to keep the market interested in having both options but that’s up to the builder. If it doesn’t blow up easy it’s better for the class and the sport meaning the average runners wallet. Remember it’s not the top 10 guys that we need to satisfy it’s the great big group of mid pack and back marker weekend warriors that keep this class looking big and strong to the world, these numbers attract the people, it’s all about numbers.
Keep in mind my opinion is based around the whole sport not just SKUSA sprint. I’m a road race guy when I have time which means SKUSA really doesn’t effect what my classes do.. or does it? In road we only allow the 99, with this 01 issue we have seen numbers in rr grow based on the fact that SKUSA runners are letting good 99 models go very cheap because they no longer need them for SKUSA if the want to feel like they have a shot at winning. Is this good for road race? Yes it is for now but down the road if SKUSA runners fade away from 125 stock because of high costs to operate the 01 it will damage the whole sport. A happy market needs an affordable motor package, without that were doomed to lose people which will raise costs for all. By the way did I mention road race runners have the biggest balls in the land? 100+ mph.. bring it on yo! ;-)
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