Home Forums Chassis & Handling Driving: Slow in Slow out Reply To: Driving: Slow in Slow out

Paul Kish

Edit up front:  I’m posting this without proof reading it.  There’s no way I want to wade though all the bull and confusion I just wrote. … :)


And unless I have a reason to, I’m not going to read it later either.



Good morning,

Just had my coffee and without trying to just argue but giving reasons, I think my first feelings about the apex moving ‘only’ because of a hp change were correct.

I long ago gave up trying to remember everything.  When we got into kart racing we assumed it was not in our nature to take notes.  We never kept any notes except for a gear chart.  My son and I decided we would have to somehow learn what was needed to be done to fix the multitude of situations we would come into both on and off the track.   That’s not the quickest way to gain the skills needed to be fast.  Just on a side note being fast is relevant to the situation your in and nothing else.  Along the lines of the effort it takes to keep notes, there is the effort it takes to figure stuff out.  I long ago went through the I have to know all the numbers stage and found you only need to know an approximation of what is needed or have a correct direction to go.  I also long ago learned on here(the old on here) from Al Nunley about the importance of theory.  It’s not so much that a particular theory is important, it’s about having a direction to go in specific situations to get to a conclusion, weather it’s right or wrong.  With theory if you get to the wrong conclusion you can per what I learned from Al, go back and alter your theory.  With numbers if you get to an answer which does not fit the situation, there’s nothing to go back and change, you must create a new problem.  When racing we already have enough problems to deal with, without having to intentionally create new ones.

Mike, the first thing which shows up to me reading your post is I see conflict in your mind.  The conflict is because your still looking for specific answers and there are none in racing, only results.  And the only result even remotely acceptable to a racer is winning.

Here’s the conflict I see.  You presented a story from Road Atlanta where instructor Terry Yearwood was presented a question about the input needed to find specific answers.  Instead of getting into and discussing the value of data and being result orientated on the track, he answered with, “Yes you probably could or you could just drive through it 3 times and be pretty close to where you need to be.”.  You cannot go out and find the correct line and you cannot come in and calculate the correct line.  You must look for it, find it and have the skills to realize you found it, never forgetting it can change or a new line will emerge.   Those were the thoughts on one side of your head when you started into your reply.

The other side of your mind is still looking for specific items to hook onto.  With racing you can’t have it both ways.  There is no way to look at anything racing, you can only observe it and do it.  It’s no different then only being able to paint or look at a fine painting.  I think I got lost in the shuffle of writing and wandering off half way through in a different direction again.  Racing is so complex that specific facts cannot be combined to get an answer, which can be proven by a path of facts, to the answer.  I didn’t even understand the last sentence.

All that to say I 100% agree with your post.  And I’m only suggesting to be careful about facts because they can be all consuming.


on to screwing up trying to reply to Greg too.


Greg I think I’m correct about if the only change made was a change in hp and it demanded the apex be moved, the lower hp kart was not operating at it’s potential to apply hp.

I have a general rule number one.  Actually I have many rule number one’s.  Rule number one is:  You never increase distance through a turn, unless you either have the hp to take advantage of the increased distance or if the increased distance will allow you to get an advantage from maintained momentum.

If higher hp allows the kart to move the apex and gain speed, it can only be done if there was grip already available.  If the grip was there for the lower hp kart and the lower hp kart did not also move the apex out, it assumes two things.  The first is the lower hp kart did not have enough hp available to take advantage of the grip it already had and it assumes the lower hp kart was taking the turn below its level of available grip.  I assume anytime you have more grip then you can use, the excessive grip is eating into hp.  While writing the last sentence I automatically started as usual to pick apart what I was writing, as I always do.  It’s a plague.  My thought while writing was so what if you have extra grip available, it doesn’t mean you are using the extra grip.  My answer to myself was your racing on tires and it all boils down to tires and using each tire to do a specific job in the most efficient way.  Your only options for gaining grip with any tire are to either use more tire or to use a tire with more stick.  It doesn’t matter if you had more tire or stick, you will still be escessively eating hp and momentum with the lower hp kart and not be able to be running it at it’s limit.

Well as usual while writing the last sentence I started to bring more variables into it and question what I was presenting.  There is something which would allow the higher hp kart to be able to use the same tires which allow the lower hp kart to run at it’s limit of grip.  The thing or things are forces out on the track.  If the higher hp kart was able to take advantage of aero forces, then it could in deed go faster with the same tires that limit the grip of the lower hp kart.  In fact when a track slows down, the first thing you might think about even before gearing is how the reduction of forces out on the track will effect the speed at which the chassis is able to operate.  With a kart though gearing would be the first thing to deal with.

I don’t know if I made a case for showing that if hp was the only change made and it allowed for a different and more advantageous apex over the lower hp kart, the lower hp kart had to have been running below it’s available grip.  And then there’s the so what if it is, about the argument I’m making.

Oh well either way, I enjoy writing and just got two hours of enjoyment out of this.  I guess I should quit for now and go get something productive done today.




and thanks for the conversation

Brake, Insert 'arc', Turn, Accelerate