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Wes Greene
Joined: 02 Sep 2005
Posts: 71
Location: United States, Georgia, Decatur
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 Posted: Wed Mar 29, 2006 12:44 pm Post subject: rotax in f125 |
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I'm planning to run my rotax time only at the next local event. Anyone have an idea how much off the pace it will be vs. the shifter times.
For reference let's use a previous event on a course that had high speeds and the fastest 125 turned a 37.xxx compared to the fast car (SS class) turned a 40.xxx.
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Danny Lerner
Joined: 08 May 2005
Posts: 188
Location: United States, New York,
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| Posted: Wed Mar 29, 2006 1:22 pm Post subject: |
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I cant tell you how much your times will be off, but your biggest disadvantage is probably going to be launching...
Danny
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Phil Johnson
Joined: 14 Mar 2006
Posts: 36
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| Posted: Wed Mar 29, 2006 1:26 pm Post subject: |
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I ran a Yamaha Pipe last year against the shifters (no 100cc class). I was only 2 seconds be hind the guy. granted driving skill has alot to do with it (his and mine). This year I have a TaG 125cc set up and hopefully I'll be able to give the guy a run for his money.
this was with the yamaha:
http://www.scca-milwaukee.org/Solo/2005/Event6_fin.htm |
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Larry MacLeod
Joined: 28 Sep 2005
Posts: 299
Location: United States, Michigan, Ypsilanti
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| Posted: Wed Mar 29, 2006 1:48 pm Post subject: |
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But I see a SS Vette beat F125 that day. You should be a few seconds ahead of SS if you're running at true F125 speed.
I would estimate you'd be about 2 seconds behind a shifter if you're driving a rotax.
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F125 #196
Old Birel/ hodgepodge Honda CR125
Lefty Funk
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Phil Johnson
Joined: 14 Mar 2006
Posts: 36
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| Posted: Wed Mar 29, 2006 3:00 pm Post subject: |
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| Larry MacLeod wrote: |
But I see a SS Vette beat F125 that day. You should be a few seconds ahead of SS if you're running at true F125 speed.
I would estimate you'd be about 2 seconds behind a shifter if you're driving a rotax. |
I was driving a 100 cc (14hp) yamaha. Not a 125cc motor.
This year I'll be running the PRD Fireball. 125cc (27hp)
The corvette is driven by a guy who's been racing Vetts all his life.
This year hopefully I'll get a trophy at least once! |
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Larry MacLeod
Joined: 28 Sep 2005
Posts: 299
Location: United States, Michigan, Ypsilanti
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| Posted: Wed Mar 29, 2006 3:44 pm Post subject: |
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| Phil Johnson wrote: | I was driving a 100 cc (14hp) yamaha. Not a 125cc motor.
This year I'll be running the PRD Fireball. 125cc (27hp) |
Understood. The Rotax should be much faster than the 100.
My initial comment was more directed at your comparison to the winner of F125 in those results you posted. His times F125 were probably 2+ seconds off the expected pace, putting your 100cc maybe 4 seconds off from a true F125 time. I would expect a Rotax to still be 2-3 seconds off a true F125 benchmark time. That's (I think) what the original poster was looking for.
If you're in Milwaukee, have you ever run against Dan Cyr or Sebastian Strauss? They would each be good benchmarks for your Rotax.
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Old Birel/ hodgepodge Honda CR125
Lefty Funk
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Wes Greene
Joined: 02 Sep 2005
Posts: 71
Location: United States, Georgia, Decatur
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| Posted: Wed Mar 29, 2006 3:52 pm Post subject: |
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| thanks Larry. I saw Sebastian listed on the results page under pro. He was a good bit faster. |
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Phil Johnson
Joined: 14 Mar 2006
Posts: 36
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| Posted: Wed Mar 29, 2006 3:58 pm Post subject: |
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| Larry MacLeod wrote: | | Phil Johnson wrote: | I was driving a 100 cc (14hp) yamaha. Not a 125cc motor.
This year I'll be running the PRD Fireball. 125cc (27hp) |
Understood. The Rotax should be much faster than the 100.
My initial comment was more directed at your comparison to the winner of F125 in those results you posted. His times F125 were probably 2+ seconds off the expected pace, putting your 100cc maybe 4 seconds off from a true F125 time. I would expect a Rotax to still be 2-3 seconds off a true F125 benchmark time. That's (I think) what the original poster was looking for.
If you're in Milwaukee, have you ever run against Dan Cyr or Sebastian Strauss? They would each be good benchmarks for your Rotax. |
Sebastion was in pro. I don't think he had any weights on his kart and he was a light guy. Look at an older results page. there are some with more shifters. Sebastion was very fast at the SoloII events. I think he moved though. |
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Larry MacLeod
Joined: 28 Sep 2005
Posts: 299
Location: United States, Michigan, Ypsilanti
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| Posted: Wed Mar 29, 2006 7:22 pm Post subject: |
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| Phil Johnson wrote: | | Sebastion was in pro. I don't think he had any weights on his kart and he was a light guy. Look at an older results page. there are some with more shifters. Sebastion was very fast at the SoloII events. I think he moved though. |
He moved to Virginia (I think). I've run against him at CenDivs and Nationals a few times. Good guy. Always fast, too. Especially in the wet!
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Old Birel/ hodgepodge Honda CR125
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Brian Garfield
Joined: 04 Apr 2004
Posts: 667
Location: United States, Maryland, SKCA Racing!
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| Posted: Wed Mar 29, 2006 7:59 pm Post subject: |
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Now if I can only get him to roll up here to the bigger events...
http://solo.wdcr-scca.org/results/20060326.php
From my sources (ICA and Rotax drivers), a fast clutch kart driver should only loose at the start, some I'm gonna say about 2-3 seconds off of fast shifter drivers.
See you in a couple weeks!
Brian |
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Alan Sheidler
Joined: 09 Aug 2001
Posts: 471
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| Posted: Thu Mar 30, 2006 2:21 am Post subject: |
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I'm thinking that for a normal 50 seconds autocross course, the spread between the shifter and the Rotax would be 4 to 5 seconds with equal drivers. Expect 3 to 4 each side for a 30 seconds run (in a shifter) at a Pro Solo.
http://www.scca.com/_Filelibrary/File/2003ftmyers-pro.pdf
Note that my 4 DSQ runs Saturday PM were due to running an "experimental" vehicle, a TaG kart with a Biland SA-250 4-cycle on it. Great fun, but about 3.5 seconds per side slower, IIRC. For reference, I ran a 4-cycle "Exciter" 225 4-cycle shifter at the Toledo Tour in 2004, and was nearly three seconds off Dan's pace.
There are many Tour results you can peruse to get an idea regarding kart to car comparisons. Just remember that smooth surfaces, courses with shorter slaloms, narrower gates, and maneuvers rewarding quickness will help a kart shine. Sites with rough or bumpy pavement (cough*Peru*cough*Forbes*cough) and layouts using longer slalom spacing, big sweeping turns, and wide gates will give relative rewards to cars.
Alan |
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Brian Garfield
Joined: 04 Apr 2004
Posts: 667
Location: United States, Maryland, SKCA Racing!
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| Posted: Thu Mar 30, 2006 5:16 am Post subject: |
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Much better data than what I have, I'll go with what Alan is saying.
We had a TAG run in our region a little, but the driver was giving us a "less than accurate" comparison.
I'm trying to talk a really good ICA driver to bring his out, he'd just have to do running starts...
To tell you the truth, I'd love to start running Kart Only Solo events, with at least a couple of classes (maybe shifter, TAG, and 100 for adults). But they would have to be paid upfront, god knows nobody would be showing for the rain... 
Brian |
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Alan Sheidler
Joined: 09 Aug 2001
Posts: 471
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| Posted: Fri Mar 31, 2006 12:11 am Post subject: |
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| Brian Garfield wrote: |
To tell you the truth, I'd love to start running Kart Only Solo events, with at least a couple of classes (maybe shifter, TAG, and 100 for adults). But they would have to be paid upfront, god knows nobody would be showing for the rain...
Brian |
I believe in some areas they are doing something like that at sprint tracks. More like what SCCA now calls "ClubTrials" and "Track Trials" (the old Solo1). Guys who got burnt out running with kaimkaze kids in W2W racing are getting together to run what amounts to qualifying laps, based on transponder records. One or two karts on track at a time, no passing or even close racing. See if it is happening where you are. The track I read about guys doing it was Norway, IL, I think.
As for doing autocrosses for karts only... Maybe in 5 years or so there might be enough around to make it work. Personally, I like being at the events with my car door slamming friends. I've invested a lot of time and effort into blending F125 karts into SCCA autocross, and am not looking to strike off independently. Diminished attendance in F125 might get us booted faster than any other class (such as the poorly attended AM and BM?), and getting back in, if an independent series failed, would be everything but impossible. Just more competition for sites, dates, etc.
I'm looking forward to a surge in attendance in Topeka this year, and am confidently predicting 30 entries. That smooth new pad should bring back all the open and L drivers who decided to stay away from the torture test that was Forbes Field.
Alan |
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Vernon Head
Joined: 21 Jul 2001
Posts: 455
Location: United States, California,
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| Posted: Fri Mar 31, 2006 10:10 am Post subject: |
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I tried it 3 years ago with not-so-good results. They are very slow off the line, but if you have a tight turn at the start it minimizes the loss of time. One really nice advantage is not having to shift. And I was running at about 375 lbs.
http://www.sfrscca.org/solo2/Results/2003/Championship/round8.html |
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Brian Garfield
Joined: 04 Apr 2004
Posts: 667
Location: United States, Maryland, SKCA Racing!
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| Posted: Fri Mar 31, 2006 12:21 pm Post subject: |
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Alan, trying to stay somewhat on topic:
It would allow for MORE karts (TAG) to be competitive with other classes, so maybe the events would be more popular. (not that we can't run other classes in the car events, but I doubt that would be encouraged with our current "sell-out" status)
However, like you, I WANT to be there with the cars myself. Those are all my friends, and it's fun to beat them 
In our region, we currently check the lot by setting up the day before. If we decided to pay a little more money and simply run karts that day, it could work. We could still list them as the same event (the full weekend) so the "kart turnout" would be very high. Plus, you'd get more people into it to run at National events once they realize how cool Solo is.
All this said, I'm not chasing the idea right now, I was just throwing it out there.
God knows, the SCCA won't want to create ANOTHER kart class... 
Brian |
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