Costs

[Andy Seesemann]

As costs escalate, what do you think will happen to national level shifter racing?

It seems to me that the amount of national level racers will diminish, but there will always be some willing to make that $$$$ commitment.

On that note, what do you think the future holds for ROTAX? It is labelled a "beginner" class, but as you know it has much more than "beginner" performance.

[Jeff Franz]

Interesting thoughts, Andy. I have heard many, many people wondering about those same issues.

It appears as though there are increasingly fewer of those people willing to make the $$$$ commitment to a national shifter series. You know first hand how expensive it is.

A common mantra so many of us hear with considerable frequency: "We like the idea of a national program, but until a sponsor steps in to help with our costs, we can't afford it much longer. It's bleeding us dry."

If that trend continues, then perhaps the current national program will go the way of the others before it that made a similar attempt.

[ July 17, 2001: Message edited by: Jeff Franz ]

[Darren Swisher]

Sponsorship will have to step up in order for the national scene to grow to respectable levels.

Since the budgets of shifter karts is small compared higher forms of motorsports translates in to a smaller overall profits within the industry.

example, cost of racing for a stock car is $100,000

cost of racing a shifter kat $25,000

The largest budget items will be money put back into the industry.

The stock car industry has a lot higher profit. maybe not margin but in total $$

SO it is more affordable for them to sponsor someone than it would be for the karting industry.

what did I just write
ds

[Pete Van Ginkel]

Just buy a Rotax and forget about the escalating cost.

[Doug Welch]

Costs and how to control them.

Lets at least first all agree that running in the front has never been "cheap". From a manitenance stand point alone, it costs more to run in front than in the back. As the importance of the series grows, the more it will cost to win it.

When we are talking about national series, there really is only one, the SKUSA PMT. So when someone brings up costs, what they really are talking about is running SKUSA and shifter karts in particular. As we are running the PMT, I can realate first hand to the questions of costs and have they gotten out of hand.

First, the biggest part, at least 60%, of our costs are travel. Motels and such. SKUSA can hardly be held responsible for those costs and they are completly out of their control. Secondly, which cl*** you run also greatly contributes to costs. That is one reason why we chose K1. It costs far less to run than a 125 yet there are many high quality racers in it. Many who like us what the high level of competition found at a PMT but not at such a high costs.

If the karts were free, we still would have the travel costs that is the largest part of the costs to run a national tour.

Sponsorship will come as the program improves and the quality of the show improves. People will sponsor us if we have something to provide them. We have to have a quality show with close racing, professional teams and drivers that are appealing to the general public. Nobody will give us money without expecting something in return.

The only things I see that SKUSA could do to limit costs are go to a spec pipe, carb and provide ignitions. Ignitions would be checked after each race(removed from impound) to determine tampering. A system similar to CART and the pop off valve. Such restraints would only reduce costs by $1,000 maybe $2,000 per year, not much in the total budget.

RotaxMax is harly the answer. Stock engines and spec cl***es have been around as long as karting has been around. Briggs, KT100, HPV have all been touted in the past as the great savior of karting and reducing costs. If you know the histroy of each of these engines, some were more stock than others and some were better than others. As they got older and needed rebuilding, some did better still. People started buying several motors to find the best one. Some found that if you matched a certain jug with a certain pistion, it ran better. It didn't take long before the motors were blueprinted (to make them more even) and the costs went up. The same will happen to Rotaxmax.

But there is another reason RotaxMax won't make it. They are not loud enough. They don't shift gears. They are too much like going to going to the local fun track and watching the rookies race. Shifter karts offer a package that is very attractive to spectators. Besides being very fast, they shift gears like a car and they are loud. If someone ever set up a sound meter next to teh track, a lot of the new $200 "silencers" will be gone.

[Chuck McCue]

The closed market approach in the USA of the RM program will be its eventual demise. For a motor to suceed it must be widely available from many sources, such as the KT100, HPV or even the MX base shifter motors. History proves it. Time will tell.

[Bill Kassy]

Although, I generally agree that costs are HUGE factor, I also think time available is another. Granted time available is related to costs, but for the average "week-end" warrior, anymore than a 3 or a 4 day week-end a few times a year starts to impact major life things like a career, relationships, and other committments.

Another area to consider is the total costs of karting. Generally speaking, until the rules get fixed or stabilized, changing rules or the intent of the rules is impacting the participation of the SKUSA type events.

I know, from our group that participated in the Winter Series this year, that we have purposively not updated our stuff a whole lot, until we see how the rules fall out. We just don't have the budget to go chasing the final 10ths, only to find out that the $300 mod to the PI will no longer be allowed, or that $500 dellorto racing carb with the 39mm throat is 1mm too big, or is not the specified type of carb.

I also believe, that several of the drivers that did the winter series this year, are thinking about going into other types of motorsports, because of the uncertainity of the rules in shifter karts. Before they spend essentially $9000 or so on getting newer karts and motors, they are looking at all the possiblities of where to spend their hard earned dollars.

Another thing - if F1 can do a race week-end in a Friday - Sunday venue, and CART can do the same thing, as well as NASCAR, why do go-karts need a whole week of practice at the track before the nationals???

Another area to consider, and no you don't need to be a rocket scientist is to take a hard look at the economy - and try to envision the amount of disposable income available - Is it less or more than last year, or the year before? Yes, the die hards will spend whatever it takes, but the health of the sport is based on the casual user not the die hards.

As usual, just my 2 1/2 cents.


Doesn't appear to make good fiscal sense!

[John Scott]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Andy Seesemann:
As costs escalate, what do you think will happen to national level shifter racing?

---

Andy
No matter what shifter racing costs at the national level, it will always be a bargain compared to the next rung on the ladder. For less than the price of a F2000, we can run the entire PMT and get many inches of magizine ink and photos, plus direct contact with people.

Even a competitive midget ride at the local dirt track would cost more and we would only be at the local level of competition. In karting, the national (and regional) level racing is about as competitive as it gets with many truly outstanding and talented people. We have met and raced many people over the years who are now making a living in formula cars.

As Doug nicely puts it, it costs money to run up front, but running up front in Karts will always be easier (cheaper) than any other form of seriously competitive motorsports.

[Andy Seesemann]

I agree with the above posts, I posted this topic to start a discussion, I hope it continues...

Do you think that National level shifter racing will go the way of the Dodo, Constructor's Cup, Gus Traeder's PKA, the big days of the IKF Nationals, etc.?

-A

[Doug Welch]

Will national shifter racing go away? I certainly hope not. But it all depends on many factors, not the least of which is us racers.

Lets look at why some of the others failed. WKA and IKF are member driven democracies. They are doomed to fail because it takes too long for them to make changes and to respond to changing market condiditons. They are also subject to control by selfish interests that may or may not have the best interest of the karter in mind.

SKUSA has one very major difference. It is a for profit company. It is controled by a small group of people who do not need to be re-elected very few years and are not driven by outside personal interests in their decision making. SKUSA is their first prioity, not their sideline. They can respond quickly to market changes.

One of the problems I see right now is that some kart manufacturers and importers do not like their lack of control of SKUSA. They have grown accumstomed to controlling the direction of IKF and WKA and they do not like having to take a back seat in SKUSA. Their boycott of recent ProMotos is evidence of that. Clearly, they are fighting for control of SKUSA's direction and they think that by withholding their teams they will force SKUSA to change.

IMHO, they are being short sighted. For example, if your company was trying to setup dealers and sell karts in Canada, boycotting the Barrie race only tells prospective dealers and customers that your support of them is condidtional. As a consumer, I want to know that their support is unconditional. My question, are they in this for their customers or for themselves. It tells you a lot about the companies basic philosphy toward customer service.

The large teams being in control of SKUSA is not in the best interest of Joe Shmoe racer. By being independant of the large manufacturers, SKUSA retains credibility that will hopefully keep its series alive where others have failed.

Doug

[Bonnier Moulton]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Doug Welch:
One of the problems I see right now is that some kart manufacturers and importers do not like their lack of control of SKUSA. They have grown accumstomed to controlling the direction of IKF and WKA and they do not like having to take a back seat in SKUSA. Their boycott of recent ProMotos is evidence of that. Clearly, they are fighting for control of SKUSA's direction and they think that by withholding their teams they will force SKUSA to change.



The large teams being in control of SKUSA is not in the best interest of Joe Shmoe racer. By being independant of the large manufacturers, SKUSA retains credibility that will hopefully keep its series alive where others have failed.
Doug

---

LOL! New forum same errr... stuff.

1. Costs are escalating and getting out of control. Certainly not all costs are under the control of SKUSA such as travel and lodging. But they could do more to limit the costs they have some control over.

2. There are three basic types of competitors on a national level:
A.The big mfg (Trackmagic), importer (Birel), and shop (Pitts) teams with the drivers they assist.
B. The rich or fairly well-to-do family supporting their kid and trying to move them up the motorsports ladder.
C. The privateer.

3. Type A provides the professionalism and credibility that a national series needs to attract sponsorship and media coverage. They also spend far more than type B and type C. The caveat is for them it is a business. Therefore they are (if they're wise) governed by a very simple guideline...it's called cost/benefit. For them to continue to pour money into any series, there must be a benefit equal to or greater than the cost. Most of these teams ignored the cost/benefit analysis during '99 and '00, operating on the belief that the benefits would eventually overtake the costs. This hasn't happened and some of them are reevaluating the wisdom of continuing to operate their teams at a loss. No big conspiracy, no hidden agendas, just sound business principle.

For type B and type C, it's a different deal. They are there either as an investment in the future (moving their driver to the next level) or for recreation. These people don't worry about cost/benefit in the strictest sense. But they do worry about cost escalation because in most cases their resources are limited. Type B people will probably take the cost escalation better than A or C because they are looking at fairly short-term participation anyway.

Doug's conspiracy theory makes great daytime TV, but it's simply not the case. So far, two major teams have missed PMT events, Birel in Sacto and Trackmagic in Barrie. Birel made it pretty clear that they are unhappy with what they see as inconsistent rules enforcement. Trackmagic has the same complaint. Actually, a lot of people have this complaint. Additionally, the championship was essentially over even before Barrie and from a marketing standpoint second is worth nothing. If a major team missing an event constitutes a boycott, then a lot of teams have boycotted events this year. Very few Type A competitors have been to all rounds of the PMT. As for Doug's complaint that Trackmagic did not support their customers at Barrie, this is untrue. They had a representative (Oliver Rowen) at Barrie to assist all their customers with chassis setup and assistance.

Doug is right in that having the big teams controlling SKUSA is not in the best interest of Joe Schmoe. But I have spoken with many of the big teams and none of them are trying to control SKUSA. They simply want to compete on what they see as a level playing field and some sort of action that would contain costs until the benefits catch up.

SKUSA's vision for the PMT is a great one. But if you focus strictly on the horizon, you're quite likely to trip over your own feet and fall down.

Just my opinion.
Bonnier
Msquared Karting www.msquaredkarting.com

[Darren Swisher]

Bonnier, great post.

We have to remember that SKUSA is a very young company. Very few companies have what it takes right out of the gate. Time will bring SKUSA to where it wants to be. It is through our mistakes that we learn the most.

Darren

[Chuck McCue]

Bonnier,
Very well stated. Inconsistancy is the #1 issue SKUSA should address. My questions are will we have consistant and equal rules for all regions next year? The new 2002 rule book is set to come out soon, we shall see.

[Stephen Buckley]

Jeeeeezzz... I can't stay out of this one.

Regardless of the naysayers, the RotaxMax WILL do VERY well whether it has a factory sponsored series or not (And provided the major karting organisations don't screw it up). The Series is just icing on the cake. You ask "How can he say that?". Project yourself out of the "narrow" karting mindset for just a moment. Ask "Who is buying this motor?". It's the "older" folk with disposable income. All they want to do, at first, is learn just a little bit about karting, and then jump in and have fun. Most of us could care less about the RotaxMax Challenge Series (other than being able to run with a large field of karts). We like to roll the kart out of the trailer, put gas in, change a gear or a jet or two, hit the start button and race. We don't have the time or maybe the ability to sit around all week monkeying around with the motor. Some have families with kids in school with their own activities. Some just have other things that they rather do. RotaxMax's also allow us to race alone. Maybe Mom and the kids, or the girlfriend can't help out. No biggie! No need for a pusher or a starter. And winning a race?? Sure, that would be nice. But most of us are racing for reasons beyond the need for $6 trophies. These motors aren't HPV's, Yami's, or whatever motor that might have been touted as a spec class before. Rotax has stepped up to the plate with something that was sorely needed... not only here in the US, but all around the karting world.

As far as shifters... yes, they're cool. However, they aren't the ultimate answer and they aren't for everyone. As far as noise... well, in many areas in the US and around the world, that is a regulated topic. It's "If you want to race, you'll better do it quietly!" thing. In addition, the crowd, if indeed there is such a thing, wants to see good nose to tail action (Think NASCAR racing here!) and the DD classes and RotaxMax class provide just that.

[ July 19, 2001: Message edited by: Stephen Buckley ]

[Doug Welch]

The great thing about conspriacy theories, is that there is no way to disprove them. I have been told by some on the other side of the fight that they have indeed received demands from some of the larger importers and manufacturers and SKUSA has been resisting them.

Additionally, it is very short sighted to pull out if you can't win. What does that say about your product and your confidence of it? It's not good enough to win with so we're not going to race it! I don't think that's a message a any dealer, importer or manufacturer would want out there. If that logic were valid, then F1 would be just 3 teams! Are you saying that the manufacturers and importers are conceeding that Tony Kart and SwedeTech are the only package that is capable of winning? Besides, there are some importers that decided not to come at all this year for real and imagined complaints.

Bringing in one person, no matter how good, to help is hardly the same as a truck complete with spares and tools. I am a Type C racer and I would switch kart brands in a heart beat if that is all the support that a manufacturer is going to bring me. I need them to bring technical support and parts and mechanical help if need be in order to compete at that level.

Inconsistant rules application and the late rule book this year are very real complaints. But that was a problem at Jax. By the time Sacramento came around, it appeared that most of the issues were over and done with. Barrie had minimal problems with rules even with the DQs over cranks.

At the top levels of racing and SKUSA is clearly the top level for karting, teams don't quit because they can't win the championship. Running out of money or comitment (as B.B.King said, "the thrill is gone") are certainly reasons to quit but not when they are an intergal part of the industry.

Doug