U.S. Superkart Championship for 2005

[Chris Reinhardt]

Bill, the biggest problem I had when trying to get the Liberty region to run with us, is that I had to work with that areas director. The director wasn't really interested in having us host one of his events, and possibly loose some of their drivers to our series.
I think with what we have proposed we could go directly to Janoski and work it from there.
From your tone, that might already be in play? Excellent!!!

Chris R.

[michael beamer]

J R thank you for your fair and inclusive ideas on this series.As Robbie can tell you its not for the money ,you better keep that other job! Hardwork, friendships and the love of racing is what its about.Thanks again for this generous proposal,you are a brave man.
M Beamer

[J.R. Clasen]

Chris R, FYI, the SKUSA Long Track Rules are identical to the WSK rules. On the subject of runnnig lay downs and CIK style F/E/ and IC/E karts for the same points, let me share some observations:

The number one reason we chose to run a separtate class that more or less mirrored the Eurpopean road race formula, was because for all intent and purpose, the unlimited class in IKF was all but dead, and the unlimited division of WKA was at zero growth. In addition, from my understanding, the last new lay down kart that has been built in this country is close to 10 years old at this point. Those are the very same lay downs running in WKA events to this day.

This was not the foundation that we wanted for building, or for that matter, re-building this segment of the sport, and we chose what we thought, and what we contiune to think to be the most purdent direction to take the sport.

Try to think of this from the standpoint of someone looking to get into this type of racing. A few years back, there was a lot of confusion because all the karts looked so different. It was nearly impossible for people trying to make a buying decision, as to what was the best kart to buy. Availability was also an issue, and it is hard to argue about how easy it is to find and buy a NEW lay down kart versus a new CIK style road race kart these days. The CIK Road Race Formula provided the needed continuity.

We are still in the process of re-building a segment of the sport that was on it's way out of existance in both the IKF & WKA. It seems prudent to me and many others, that to adopt the very same formula that was leading 250 racing to the brink of extinction, would be to adopt a sure formula for failure.

With that said, I also am a race promoter that wants to have as many karts show up as possible, so contrary to popular belief, I am not a hard ass that just doesn't like lay down karts. That is why I have always said that the solution is quite simple, RUN THEM TOGETHER, and SCORE THEM SEPARATELY. It doesn't get much simpler than that.

If you want the sport to grow, you have to actually have something that is available as a new kart, employs the best in brakes, hardware, and styling, and that has readily available replacement parts. The lay down segment of the sport cannot fullfill that requirement, while the CIK style road race segment can. That, IMO, makes the choice of which way we take the sport from here, very clear.

There is also the international component, and if we want to continue attacting racers from around the globe to our big events, we need to use a similar world formula. If we brake away from it now, say bye, bye to what was begun at Laguna five years ago, and say bye bye to taking your U.S. built lay down kart across the sea to do battle.

Unlimited formula karts will always be a beautiful sight to behold, but from the point of view of taking 250 racing beyond the relm of 'one off' karts, we need to make the move that almost every successfull racing series in the world has made. That is to adopt a standardized formula which includes common size, body work, safety features, and power plants.


Regards, J.R. Clasen
WSK Founder

[Reggie Brown, Jr]

Have to agree with some of the stuff JRC has brought up. As a racer, you want as many people to race against as possible, at least we do. I love the idea of all types/styles of karts running together, let's just have some seperate classes. At a track like daytona, we would have to build a laydown twin if we wanted a chance to show up and win, and that frankly would suck ass. As much as I like the idea about running a kart with zero rules, we'd have so much money in the sucker we wouldn't be able to fill the truck up with gas to get to the race. I hope this next year we can find a way to have a east/west series with common and enforced rules. If not, we'll still just show up cause we wanna race. I have no probs with the current rules other than weight. I don't know if it would work or not because there are SOO many different ideas but maybe we should all vote for class structure and rules. This is JRO baby, and I think it's pretty cool with what he has done so far. I can't wait to see how it turns out.

[michael beamer]

JR I am surprised at how uninformed you are about the current quality of laydown designs.The statement that all of the existing unlimited laydown karts are 10 years old and built with obsolete parts is ignorant. John Gibson, Rich Cervone , Johnny Howard, Randy Fulks, Marc Payne, Robbie Harper, Joe Galyon, Jim Farr are hardly building or driving around in obsolete equipment with inadequate parts. The Quality of design and fabrication of these karts makes most of the ICE karts look like junk. A simple schedule change away from the big tracks and a resurgance of available road race tracks has changed the dynamics of what is effective. Don't confuse this with a lack of quality of these karts. If it was a race schedule change back in favor of the big tracks the ICE karts would be bricks. This is unlimited not a spec series and I hope it never ever becomes just another rigid formula; please leave that for the 125 guys. The free flow of ideas is what keeps this class fresh. Most of the people running this class are not concerned with packing up and going to europe, so I don't see the relevance of the euro racing structure. With all of your efforts and two world champions involved, with a rigid euro based concept your Laguna race didnt even make speed visions web site while WKA's puny New Hampshire national road race received coverage. I dont mean that as a slight in any way, Barber didn't recieve any recognition either. I would rather make inclusive race structures that revolve around the interests of the people running the class than exclusive rules in the pursuit of fame and glory. Dividing this class into smaller units is financially not feasable on the east coast at the present time and in no way would this help it to grow or thrive.
Thanks,
Michael Beamer

[Marc Miller]

Michael-

JR was not trying to start a debate about guys running obsolete chassis... he was stating a fact that there just isn't a market, or an influx of interest in the 250 laydown segment. I don't think it is very hard to argue that fact. Out of all the guys you have mentioned - how many are 250 shifters laydowns?

There is a significant advantage to having a format that can be looked on and within a certain period of time - a potential consumer should be able to descern where to purchase one of the machines, where to buy parts and gather all the necessary info. 250 superkarts still have a LONG way to go to satisfying the needs of the guy that doesn't want to "fabricate" their own kart - which is essentially what you have to do even with new karts - improvements can be made. Like formula car guys - many want to buy a car - prep it and maintain it - but not necessarily machine and fabricate parts to get it going (though unfortunately the formula car market can be the same as the 250's)

mm
_________________
"Luck is when Preparation meets Opportunity"
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[Chris Reinhardt]

I think these are all valid points both pro and con laydown, but I think we're putting the "kart" in front of the horse. We need a series first, with numbers regardless of what types of karts they are.
A point made was the change of the tides from the types of tracks that laydown's dominated because of the small frontal area, to the types of tracks we're mostly running now that favor a wider kart that can turn better. This is called progress!!! The WKA no longer has an Enduro series; it's called the Road Racing Series. The Unlimited class within the WKA no longer has a 45-minute endurance race; it has a 30-minute sprint race. The argument shouldn't be whether or not a laydown can run, it should be, why would you want to run it?
I have no problem with racing against laydowns, as long as they meet some sort of minimum speed rule.
Michael, you left off the two biggest names in laydowns, Andy Kiker and Kenny Deutch, oh yah, they have Andersons.


Chris R.

[michael beamer]

Marc, I have witnessed people going through the process of importing a chassis from England ,problems with parts availability,customs ect..JR doesn't have a showroom with 50 models either he makes them one at a time.He has had 5 years to grow his series to a grand total of 3 races last year 2 of which were other peoples show .If this spec idea was going to sweep the country it probably would have.As the reality exists today this is not the scca .If you are ready to race unlimited then the idea that you would be confused by the process of having choices and then carrying them out is absurd.The people I have raced around for almost 20 years dont see this as a transitionary class such as skusa 125.It is made up of people smart enough to adapt to what is needed to get the job done.Right now that seems to be an ICE type kart but to say it has to look a certain way and exclude all the other ideas is not the way to grow the class.The best thing about racing is the most effective ideas will naturally evolve ,they dont have to be crammed down peoples throats.If this series is going to come to the East coast and be accepted into the existing series it has to accomplish this without destroying what is already there.It is not a stand alone series and untill it is it needs to work with the people who have run and supported the unlimited class for the long term.Anybody interested in building a laydown can choose from numerous fabricaters including Comet, and Margay to build anything they desire .

Thanks
M Beamer

PS Chris congrats on the fast lap at Barber but Robbie was only 2/10 back!Hardly getting in anybodys way. Kenny still has a laydown and i will build another frame also .This is the national unlimited series nobody said it would be cheap or easy to adapt and run what is necessary to compete at the variety of tracks this series runs.Ask Trimmer why he would run a laydown at daytona or charlotte,He was leading the race until his Anderson brake fell apart.

[Marc Miller]

OK Michael - we can agree to disagree... as far as getting a laydown from Margay... enjoy trying.. unless you are Fulks, who I know well and is a friend - you won't get one. Also - I never said building the 250 was easy - that is why I said they still have a long way to go to educate the potential 250 racer on what things they need to do. The market is however much better than the laydown unlimited... and parts, availability - and even used kart sales is much better. Having several different varieties of cars out there running is just more confusing. No one is putting a stranglehold on one's enginuity in building and prepping their kart - but at least have a guideline..especially for the ICE class.

Superkart crowd doesn't HAVE to do anything to satisfy the WKA unlimited participants. Especially if that group of 5-10 people push against what the series organizers and the competitors want to do. I don't think I am the only one that thinks that it isn't the 250 crowd's job to try to promote and increase the # of laydown unlimiteds - they have that task themselves. It is tough enough to continue to develop the 250 market as it is.
_________________
"Luck is when Preparation meets Opportunity"
Director of Brand Development (MRP/Birel) www.BirelAmerica.com /
Advanced Instructor - MRP Speed Schools - www.mrpmotorsport.com
Professional Driver/Driver Coach - http://www.themarcmillershow.com

[michael beamer]

The point is that the superkart crowd wants to come and use the race series that the unlimited laydown OR situp crowd has built over the years.The question is what this new series will allow to run.What about an ICE chassis with an enduro body.This arguement is not about the chassis ,its about the freedom to define your kart yourself without someone else telling you exactly how it has to look.I have a cr 250 enduro semi situp but because it does not look like the WSK definition it would not be allowed to run in that series.Ken Deutsch just built a new 250 kart based on an Anderson chassis but using enduro style body work ,once again -NOT quality Not looks Not motor but an artificial definition of what it should look like would keep it out.JR O has said this is a looser definition series that will include other types, just look at his bodywork ,hardly cik spec.I am sure that if you or any of the other people that want to make this an exclusive,strictly defined series would pony up the money so it would not have to piggyback on an existing series nobody would object to you renting the track and putting on whatever type of show you want.When you start making plans to use other promoters races then you might have to listen to what is best for both series.By the time someone has earned the right to run an unlimited kart I doubt they would be so easily confused by a few choices.If they are that feebleminded maybe they shouldn't be running a 250 /unlimited kart anyway.

Thanks
M Beamer

[Chris Reinhardt]

JRC, you mostly accurate with your statements, but to Michael's defense there are new Laydowns being built, like mentioned Greg Trimmer's nearly Daytona winning chassis that was built by Cervone and I believe it was new in 2000 or 2001.
I do think the point you were trying to get across about no new growth is accurate though. I nearly won the WKC Unlimited Championship in 2000 and I only used the class to break in motors and never finished a race. I was one race short of having the minimum required. That was before Chris Taylor showed up with his 1st Anderson in 01; the class has grown every year since.

Chris R.

[Kevin Kann]

Keith at Margay would have no issue making a twin, pay up front and wait a few months. No big deal. Also Ed at Coyote could make a twin in 3-4 weeks.I have spoke with with both manufactures.

[Frank Dawley]

I'm sorry, but I must vent.
The laydown karts have a place to run (WKA,IKF). This is a New Organization and over the last couple years it has grown. The CIK style rules have provion it works!!!
Also, Gearbox engines ONLY!!! ( No clutch Karts ).

I'm sorry if I have pissed any body off with my opinion but I have seen how karting has changed over the last 30 years and seen the mistakes made. I don't want to see history repeat it self.

[John Ferreira]

[Randy Domikis]

I say.....

Make a series or a class and see who shows up. If no one shows, ask why and make changes and see what happens next. I hope that this approach does not hurt the class over the long run, but we all need to agree at some point.

I have to agree with Frank as I have said before. WKA can stay the same, but any WSK or WSK style event should be a set series with pre-determined guidleines like it has been for the past few years.

Some competitors say that if this new series needs to meet the "Host" series rules, if this is the case, why not just have a regular "host" race. There is no need to redesign the wheel. If it is suppose to be a seperate series, then there is no need to adapt to the "host" series, run it as a seperate series under seperate rules. I am sure that any and all clubs would welcome all additional competitiors running under their own rules. We do not need to meet "their" guidelines to run.


I like many others are waiting to see what the series looks like before I decide whether to participate or not.

I see lots of opinions here, but they are oposite of one another. JR O says one thing, JR C says another and some competitors have a different view.

Lets make this simple and not replicate mistakes from the past. We have multiple formats to choose from. Lets choose one and race. WKA or WSK format.

Randy Domikis