So much for the masters class

Dennis Garwood · Posted: Sat Feb 28, 2004 10:22 pm Post subject:

I don't agree with the people that said a heavier kart is at a disadvantage. If Kart + Driver = 400 then it shouldn't matter where the weight comes from, right? I actually believe that the lighter guys will still have an advantage up to a certain point and that point is where the weight starts tearing your seat off the the mounts. because you just don't have any place to bolt on 50+ pounds of weight. In fact, weight distribution should be used as a tuning aid. If you've got one driver that weighs 200 pounds and another driver weighing in at 180 pounds, and assuming that the weights of the kart are identical to begin with and that the 200 pound driver + kart come in at weight limits, then the lighter driver has 20 pounds to place anywhere on the kart that he/she wishes. If the lighter driver needs additional weight on the nose for front/back distribution then he/she has the luxury of mounting weight on the nose and the heavier driver is stuck with his/her fat butt planted in the seat and will have to find another way to get the push out of the kart. Just my 2 cents...can I get change?

Rob Martin · Posted: Sat Feb 28, 2004 11:18 pm Post subject:

Joseph,
Sorry but 385 is the Rotax Master weight for SKUSA not 405. Take away 5lbs for safety gear. Of several chassis and TAG motor combinations I have owned, 178 was actually the lightest. How about 185lb as an average. Now the Masters drivers weight is 195.

The 70% figure was a consideration for the ideal driver weight and does not take into account chassis weights or motor handicapping. It is not uncommon for chassis weights to vary by more than 15lbs depending on model and manufacturer.

How many manufacturers provide accurate as-built weights for their karts? If chassis weights become a key issue, more and more exotic materials will be required to reduce the weight and big-budget racing will win. This direction would be contrary to what TAG is trying to accomplish. Thus, James Bremners' kart at about 180lb, Tim Finelys' kart at 195lb, my lightest kart at 178lbs, my heaviest kart at 190+lbs should be considered fairly representative of the class.

Since, you have not responded with your actual kart weights or information about your equipment I will assume you underestimated the weight when you said 165lbs. Regardless, the class weights should not be determined by the lightest driver / chassis combo OR the heaviest driver / chassis combo.

With SKUSA Rotax Masters weight now at 385lbs, this would leave James Bremner (rotax) adding 13lbs and Tim Finely (leopard) being right on weight at 390lbs. Both drivers are roughly 190lbs not 230. Obviously higher HP motors will pay a weight penalty.

Do you think 190lbs is an unreasonable drivers weight for the Masters class?

If so, what do you think is reasonable?

joseph hollinger · Posted: Sun Feb 29, 2004 12:01 am Post subject:

Bill Siler · Posted: Sun Feb 29, 2004 11:01 am Post subject: Kart and driver weight

Well I can give all of you some numbers for an Avanti with a rotax motor.
We weighed my kart with driver, and yes I am one of those over weight drivers working on losing weight. 40 lbs so far. We weighed the kart on digital scales the total weight was 409. I weight 218 with all my gear.
So that leaves 191 for chassis with motor. Also that was with a half tank of gas. I understand gas is about 6lbs per gallon? For comparison at Irwindale they had a light class at 355 and a heavy class at 400 last year. There were as many as 25 drivers in heavy and 20 or so in the 355 class. I'm don't sure what a good weight for the heavy class would be, but I do think that with a 400lb class you will see a lot of drivers showing up for that class. My understanding is that they have a 355 and 400lb tag class in northern California and the heavy class at 400lbs is as big as the light class. Both classes from what I have been told are very big. Just my 2cents.
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Bill Siler

Rob Martin · Posted: Sun Feb 29, 2004 6:17 pm Post subject:

Joseph,
I'm still waiting to hear your actual weight and not the phantom 165lbs chassis weight you originally claimed.

Tim's kart at 195lbs-10lbs for front brakes = 185 (not 180).
175-180 is for light weight, small tubing karts with minimal attachments like 4th rail and torsion bars. Almost every TAG/Rotax kart will weigh more than 180lbs.

At any rate, 185 was just used as an example.

Here is the math in case you are having trouble following:

385lbs rotax masters weight (skusa) - 185lbs chassis= 200lbs

200lbs for driver and all safety gear. As far as I can tell, no drivers are born with a snell 2000 rating, this means helmet, suit, shoes, gloves, neck collar as a minimum (ribvest or body armor optional). 5lbs minimum for all required safety gear and another couple pounds for any optional gear.

This leaves a driver weight well under 200lbs not 210 as you claim my calculations support.

I think 385 is a great Master weight but I am also not likely to whine or complain if the weight is 405.

There are many terrific 200lb plus drivers who enjoy racing Rotax and Tag masters. Why work so hard to exclude them from competitive racing?

For some strange reason, when underweight drivers lose to heavier drivers, weight always becomes the excuse.

I was tired from lifting my kart.

My kart doesn't handle as well as Bubba's kart.

My chassis isn't designed to work well with the extra weight.

My brakes don't work well with the extra 20 lbs.

My chassis is going to wear out prematurely with the extra weight.

In Europe they only weigh _______ (fill in your favorite number in kilograms)

If you don't like the weight additions why don't you provide some concrete data to lobby for a change.

Or better yet, just lose a few pounds and move down to a lighter class.

_______

Bill,
Thanks for sharing your numbers.
I'm certain you are not in the minority when it comes to a chassis weight of 190lbs plus. Your driver weight is also certainly not uncommon for a class of mature adult males.

Some racers deliberately forget to include fuel and other items like safety gear when they are doing weight calculations.

I know others may not agree but I personally believe 385 is a good minimum Masters SKUSA / TAG or club weight.

joseph hollinger · Posted: Sun Feb 29, 2004 6:43 pm Post subject:

Jon Andrews · Posted: Sun Feb 29, 2004 7:45 pm Post subject:

Bill Siler · Posted: Sun Feb 29, 2004 8:11 pm Post subject: Weights for tag

Joseph, you are in the area in northern California that has the big turnout in tag. I was talking to Doug Sharp and he told me that they have a very large turnout in the heavy class. My understanding is that they do not even allow someone to race a Rotax setup. Just BM and Leopards. I beleave the Inporter for the BM motor said that the heavy class is even larger than the light class sometimes. Do they not run at 400lbs for the heavy class up there. According to the weights I see here for Skuza they have those two motors at 390lbs. Hope they keep something at 400lbs even when I lose the other 20lbs I hope to be able to add a little weight for setup of the kart. PS I know of two friends that weight in at 200lbs + and are in great shape. I guess in to good of shape if they end up not having a motor package for someone of that weight.
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Bill Siler

joseph hollinger · Posted: Sun Feb 29, 2004 9:54 pm Post subject: Re: Weights for tag

joseph hollinger · Posted: Sun Feb 29, 2004 9:56 pm Post subject:

Rob Martin · Posted: Mon Mar 01, 2004 12:24 am Post subject:

Joseph,

My discussions are not "win or lose".

My interest is your chassis weight is strictly statistical.

You presented a TAG chassis weight and have yet to clarify its accuracy and still you continue to distort or criticise others findings.

While some may think me argumentative or perhaps even a "jerk" as you put it, at least my information is fairly accurate. I have never claimed it to be gospel as there are to many variables.

Having already stated quite clearly that I believe you were wrong,
I dont really care if you ever recognize this fact or admit a mistake may have been made on your part. My only interest is in dispelling any belief that the current Masters weights are unreasonable or out of line.

FYI, According to many credible sources, the average US male weighs 180lbs. Using this weight would only equalize 50% of the class. The other 50% would automatically be over-weight. Adding 10lbs to the mean would surely capture at least another 10% of the population. As with most things in life, a compromise is necessary. 190-195lbs seems to be a good compromise number that will capture greater than 50% of the racing population.

____________

Jon,

Thanks for presenting your findings on safety gear.

When I was presenting 5lbs as a weight for safety gear, this was obviously a low estimate. Some might argue that typical driver weights should already include shoes and clothing. This would leave gloves, collar, and helmet. I'm surprised the GP5 doesn't get you in under 10lbs total for the gear. Obviously not everyone owns a GP5.

Either way, your input on the weight of safety gear helps to add credibility to the argument for heavier class weights.

With your torsion bars installed I bet your chassis weight falls right in line with most estimates.

I consider myself to be an average demographic of the Rotax/TAG masters class. Over 40, disposable income, around 190lbs.

I have no interest is racing young hot-shoes weighing 145lbs but I also don't want to be at a huge performance disadvantage. After all, I'm racing for the competition and the fun not the large cash prizes.

joseph hollinger · Posted: Mon Mar 01, 2004 1:43 am Post subject:

Bill Siler · Posted: Mon Mar 01, 2004 9:08 am Post subject: What chassis do you have

Joseph, What chassis and motor combo do you run. 170 is light for motor and chassis. And how do you like the motor package. I am looking for a new chassis and would like to lose some weight in the chassis in the process. I am also looking to move from the Rotax package to a Tag package. The Avanti I have has the new body work I understand that is about 5 to 7 pounds if I change that out. By the way were do you run when you come down to southern California?
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Bill Siler

joseph hollinger · Posted: Mon Mar 01, 2004 9:27 am Post subject: Re: What chassis do you have

Rob Martin · Posted: Mon Mar 01, 2004 12:52 pm Post subject:

Joseph,
Your numbers and your points are well taken.

I'm not, however, saying I agree that it is the responsibility of heavier drivers to select a motor package based upon the handicapping system.

The idea of TAG is to offer a variety of choices in both motor packages and chassis selection.

Please remember that the national average is based upon millions of samples. The few morbidly obese 300lbs plus samples are offset by the few slight 100lb adult males also included in the sample.

Height is obviously a contributor to overall weight and has not even been a consideration. A true adult kart racing sample would likely not include drivers over 6' 3" (est) or drivers under 5' 3" (est).

The point I'm hoping to make is that an average adult male is much closer to 190lbs than 165lbs.

Unfortunately this difference requires an adjust of some kind to help even the field.