Which will be the motor to have?

Spencer Bunting · Posted: Wed Feb 11, 2004 8:18 pm Post subject:

The problem isn't with people working on their own motors, but rather modifing the motors.

I'll be doing the rebuilds on my Rotax this year, but I don't plan on modifing it from spec.

The way I see it, is that even with sealed motors, if you want to cheat, you can. I guarentee you could find a mechanic somewhere that will modify the engine for you for a little "tip" and then slap a seal on there. Since its sealed, the chances for a tear down are much lower.

Cheating goes on everywhere in life. People are greedy and they want to win. Not saying everyone is like this but its part of human nature.
A little seal isn't going to solve the problem of people cheating.

Lance Keelan · Posted: Wed Feb 11, 2004 8:35 pm Post subject:

Spencer you are correct. I should have said modify.

As far as the engine seals. I'm sure there would be people willing to modify a sealed engine but they would have to be a certified mechanic for that motor in order to put a seal back on. Are there certified shops that would do that?....possibly. But with fewer people allowed to do the work and having a vested interested in not getting caught to continue the priviledge of working on these motors, I think it is as good a system we have to achieve motor equality.

Rob Martin · Posted: Wed Feb 11, 2004 10:27 pm Post subject:

Lance,
It still boils down to integrity.

Integrity of the machanic, shop owner, and driver.

There is just as big a "vested interest" in producing winners.

Winning = more business

Shops (even Rotax authorized ones) can, will, and have assembled, certified, and sealed motors that are better than those delivered from the factory.

That does not mean anyone is cheating. Rather, they are simply preparing the motor in such a way that it takes advantage of the appropriate rules and specs.

Please don't rehash the great seal debate.
Some like it.
Some don't.
Tastes great, Less Filling.
This is America and luckily we get the right to choose.

The good news is that a seal is not required for TAG competition even for a Rotax motor.

Race the motor that makes you happy and support the shops that treat you with respect regardless of your wallet.

joseph hollinger · Posted: Wed Feb 11, 2004 10:37 pm Post subject:

Jim Durrell · Posted: Thu Feb 12, 2004 1:15 am Post subject:

This is ridiculous. The answer is simple.
all you need is 2 things; Post race tech inspection and Duct tape.

The post race tech will take care of the cheaters. Some of the specs are already published and the rest are coming shortly. Somebody mentioned the "New and Improved Version" of an engine. Again, simple. If an engine is "improved" it must go through the certification process all over again. I'm not sure about this, but, I believe that the engines will need to be recertified each year anyway. If it is more powerful, it gets a greater weight penalty. This being so, you don't have to get the newer version of an engine to remain competitive.

Now for the Duct tape. It's one of a mechanic's favorite tools. This tool should be used to tape shut the mouth of the whiner that is arrogant enough to believe that the only reason that they don't win is because someone has a better eingine or cheated. Before you say it, I challenge you to prove it. Spend the money to have them torn down.

On a side note; I believe that a person protesting an engine that is found to be legal should have to make a public apology to the owner of the engine. But, that's just me.

Someone also mentioned a race where the top 10 karts in the field were seperated by only .5 seconds. Do you really think that the 2-10 place drivers were whining because they thought the engine in the 1st place kart was better? Not. In this same post, the poster went on to commend the top drivers for all of the hard work that they do to be the fastest. I find this interesting considering the general tone of this post was to attack another poster and apperently to support the theory that the engine is the biggest factor in being competitive in karting. This poster made a good point about how hard work on tuning and driving were the biggest factors in being competitive. Although, I don't believe that this was the intended point.

We have won races with the weakest engine, and we have lost races with the strongest engine. So, I don't buy the theory that having the "best" engine will make me win. There's a great deal more involved than that.

I am curious about something, if you get beat by the "best" engine, then go buy the "best" engine, then get beat again, do you buy another engine or go back and work on your tuning and driving?

Enough for now. Very Happy

"sitting patiently with doublebarrelled fire hose in hand" Cool

Jim Durrell

Lance Keelan · Posted: Thu Feb 12, 2004 6:23 am Post subject:

Someone explain why a class should be defined by having a starter on board? What does the starter have to do with performance?

What's next classes such as shifters with starters, ICA with starters, ICC with starters, Yamaha 4-can with starters and blue wheels!

The point I'm trying to make is this is just another way the sport will fragment.

I firmly believe you either have spec or non-spec classes and run any motor you want.

joseph hollinger · Posted: Thu Feb 12, 2004 8:38 am Post subject:

Bob Ogden · Posted: Thu Feb 12, 2004 9:02 am Post subject:

Fragmenting karting by combining several engine manufacturers into one class when the engines are all very close in performance? Maybe some would like to have separate classes for Leopard/BM, Sonik, et al.
That's fragmenting karting! To not allow each of these an opportunity to race is restraint of trade.
There are very few who would agree that KT-100 still has any reason to exist in all its various forms. Parilla even has a 100cc Leopard option for juniors, and 85cc engine if that's too fast.
TaG offers an alternative with enough options to make for interesting fields, a little brand rivalry (think why NASCAR kicks ass in marketing compared to any other racing org in America), close racing, and reliability unheard of in its predecessors.
Are single engine classes really that much better, or is that the way it's been done for 20 years?
Maybe as it evolves, it will come down to 1or 2 or 3 engine packages, but how about letting it evolve instead of putting a stake through its heart at the beginning?

Lance Keelan · Posted: Thu Feb 12, 2004 9:49 am Post subject:

Joe...how is it a done deal? Tag is very new and will go through lots of growing pains. Just because the class has been created doesn't mean it's not open to criticism.

Bob...I'm not sure what you're trying to convey. Let me restate that I think multiple engines SHOULD be allowed. I just think that creating a separate class based on having a starter misses the mark.

IMHO the real issue at hand is segmenting classes based on what really matters. And to me that is either the casual racer who in most cases would choose a SPEC class due to ease of use, low cost etc. OR a NON-SPEC class which seems to be attractive to the serious racer.

What would you all do if someone on the TaG grid used a handheld starter? Would he be allowed to race because he doesn't have a starter on board?

joseph hollinger · Posted: Thu Feb 12, 2004 10:11 am Post subject:

Lance Keelan · Posted: Thu Feb 12, 2004 1:26 pm Post subject:

I think you've largely missed the point. TAG is supposed to create a
class for some basically similar motors to compete on a level playing
field. The electric starter thing is sort of a red herring. The motors
in question have them, but that's hardly the crucial feature. I'm sure
if you remove your starter, most (if not all) of the sanctioning bodies
will let you compete. SKUSA's rules, for example, don't appear to have
any specific starter requirement. Maybe you should try to work past
the name, and look at what's really going on.[/quote]

This is precisely what I am saying! I agree with the level playing field scenario and I think it fills a crucial niche in karting. I'm not stuck on the name at all. From my viewpoint this all looks like a spec class to me. Hey my eyes see it that way. If you don't have the spec then you don't have a level playing field anymore. Starter or no starter.

Sure you'll all flame me about spec guys cheating, but it's the best system available at this time and at least minimizes the cheaters.

I'm surprised at the attitudes here as I am just trying to express my point of view. And being brand new to karting I think a fresh perspective should always be considered.

Especially the previous comment that I should take my comments to the Rotax forum.

Just doesn't make any sense to me..... Confused

joseph hollinger · Posted: Thu Feb 12, 2004 5:59 pm Post subject:

Dick George · Posted: Thu Feb 12, 2004 6:04 pm Post subject:

Hey hey hey,,,, to quote a famous line from a Tom Hanks movie
"....... there's no crying in Rotax!!..."

Rob Martin · Posted: Thu Feb 12, 2004 6:43 pm Post subject:

Dick,
Was he talking about baseball or the Rotax Grand Nationals?

Now Forest Gump on the other hand may have had a tag motor or unsealed Rotax in his lawn tractor.

He may even have been running non-spec pump gas.

Lance Keelan · Posted: Thu Feb 12, 2004 7:07 pm Post subject:

Joe...I stand corrected. It would have been more accurate to use the word "seal".

I have nothing against the Tag class, and have nothing against them. I'm merely expressing how I see things and looking for feedback that might help me understand karting better.

I'm dissapointed in your choice of words about newbies being a dime a dozen. I guess the phrase "That's the way we've always done things" is quite familiar to you as well.