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JIM SILVERHEELS
Joined: 22 Jul 2006
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Location: United States, Massachusetts, LUDLOW
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 Posted: Mon Mar 11, 2013 2:45 pm Post subject: TJ |
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TJ, you said earlier that negative camber would let the inside wheel float in the air longer not positive.
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TJ Koyen
Joined: 03 Oct 2004
Posts: 1458
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| Posted: Mon Mar 11, 2013 4:51 pm Post subject: |
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Now my dad's getting in on this thread, so gotta watch to see who's posting 
Negative camber increases duration of lift in my experience. I don't necessarily agree with my dad when he notes that increased caster will increase lift duration. Increased caster speeds the lifting action up. If you dump max caster into the kart, it'll just jerk the inside rear up and set it back down immediately because it'll overload the outside tire right away.
edit :: Dad meant to say positive camber, not caster. I still disagree with him.
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Tim Koyen
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Joined: 26 Nov 2002
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| Posted: Mon Mar 11, 2013 6:02 pm Post subject: |
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| TJ Koyen wrote: | Now my dad's getting in on this thread, so gotta watch to see who's posting
.... I still disagree with him. |
Since it's your thread, I'll let you handle it from here. Just don't forget who tuned your kart for the past 10 years...that room full of trophys wasn't entirely due to your driving skill...
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Brent Harper
Joined: 30 Mar 2003
Posts: 892
Location: United States, Texas, Lubbock
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| Posted: Mon Mar 11, 2013 6:10 pm Post subject: |
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Things like Caster and Positive camber speed up lift/lowering. For a given amount of steering they produce more lift at a faster rate. Negative camber has always slowed down the rate of lift for me whether in my Swiss Hutless, Kosmic or Sodi. It makes it easier to carry the inside rear longer and set it down softer=Free.. That is of course if that is what the kart needs at that time. 
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JIM SILVERHEELS
Joined: 22 Jul 2006
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Location: United States, Massachusetts, LUDLOW
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TJ Koyen
Joined: 03 Oct 2004
Posts: 1458
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| Posted: Tue Mar 12, 2013 9:34 am Post subject: Re: ARTICLE |
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| JIM SILVERHEELS wrote: | | http://kracer.com.au/blog/kart-setup-nitty-gritty/effects-of-camber |
| KRacer wrote: | | If your kart lifts-and-drops, and the rate of lift is too fast, take positive camber out of the front end to help control the front tyre tuck. If the kart never really lifts at all, try more positive camber to encourage the front tyre to tuck more. |
So based on this statement, we agree that negative camber will let the tire stay up longer in the corner because it slows down the lifting action.
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mark waller
Joined: 01 Feb 2007
Posts: 89
Location: United States, Oklahoma, Owasso
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| Posted: Wed Mar 13, 2013 8:36 am Post subject: |
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If TJ and his dad can't agree on the concepts, then I'd suggest this "science" may have its "art" factor as well. I imagine newbies are completely overwhelmed by this, and apparently many more experienced karters are pretty confused as well. Best comment yet -- "If it was so easy everyone would be fast." Driving style is kind of the wildcard in this perhaps?
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TJ Koyen
Joined: 03 Oct 2004
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| Posted: Wed Mar 13, 2013 8:49 am Post subject: |
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| mark waller wrote: | | If TJ and his dad can't agree on the concepts, then I'd suggest this "science" may have its "art" factor as well. I imagine newbies are completely overwhelmed by this, and apparently many more experienced karters are pretty confused as well. Best comment yet -- "If it was so easy everyone would be fast." Driving style is kind of the wildcard in this perhaps? |
Part of it is that there is always more than one way to setup a kart to go fast. We usually agree on things, but sometimes we have to remind each other of "that one time where we did this and this happened".
So many variables involved like track conditions, tires, chassis, driving style, engine, weight etc. that it definitely makes it a combination of science and artform.
Best thing you can do to learn is to buy a set of tires, go to the track on a sunny practice day, and just start changing things one at a time and making notes of what you feel after each change.
We've got sheets and sheets of notes.
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Chris Parks
Joined: 09 Sep 2001
Posts: 1505
Location: Australia, not USA state,
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| Posted: Thu Mar 14, 2013 2:25 am Post subject: |
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| TJ Koyen wrote: | Wider doesn't always = understeer on exit.
Wider on front usually = better turn-in, but if you get too wide, it'll lift the inside rear too quickly and set it down almost immediately, causing the kart to sit flat and push off the corner.
Widen the front to get the kart to rotate quicker at turn-in. Narrow it to slow down the rotation.
Understeer on exit caused by an excessively wide front is a case of being way out of the ballpark on your front width. It's a strange side-effect that isn't the norm for what a wide front would do.
The short and sweet of it is, don't try and fix a handling issue (in your case, exit oversteer) with another counteractive handling issue (inducing understeer on exit by over-widening the front track). |
Yes all very well but how about the stuff that causes this behaviour and why it varies from kart to kart. People spout this sort of stuff like they have learned it by rote but they never tell us the dynamic that caused a particular behaviour. All that has been said here is what happens, not why it happens.
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JIM SILVERHEELS
Joined: 22 Jul 2006
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Location: United States, Massachusetts, LUDLOW
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| Posted: Thu Mar 14, 2013 4:46 am Post subject: Chris |
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Any chance we could"Ask Chris"?
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Chris Parks
Joined: 09 Sep 2001
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Location: Australia, not USA state,
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| Posted: Thu Mar 14, 2013 6:15 pm Post subject: Re: Chris |
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| JIM SILVERHEELS wrote: | | Any chance we could"Ask Chris"? |
Jim, I get annoyed when someone comes on here and starts giving generic answers to issues that might or might not work on an individual case by case basis. They also fail to out line or explain the changes that occurred in the chassis when those changes are done. If you go right back in this forum, at least six years ago but possibly longer we were a group that actually did some ground breaking thinking on what chassis do or might do. We pushed the use of a wide scrub radius and stiffer chassis a LOOONNNNGGG time before the Europeans were doing it and in the process gained a heap of knowledge about why thing change and what causes change. I am only a casual visitor here these days and for some reason I have never gotten notification emails so it is no good asking me anything, besides that I would be told I don't know what I talking about but the people who would tell me that apart from Chris L have never studied chassis ENGINEERING instead just worked out some stuff by rote, do this and this happens sort of stuff. Believe me there were some really clever people involved from guys who ran Indy cars for a living to another who was the lead chassis engineer for TVR sports cars and I just tagged along and tried to learn.
Do yourself a favour and go back and read, some of it is hilarious debate and some is beyond comprehension initially but it all adds up to an education that every karter needs.
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understeer happens on road courses and usually is pronounced with a British accent. Push happens on ovals and usually is pronounced through a wad of chew. Other than that, I don't think there's a difference - Jim Derrig
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TJ Koyen
Joined: 03 Oct 2004
Posts: 1458
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| Posted: Thu Mar 14, 2013 6:58 pm Post subject: |
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I can't tell you why everything happens on a kart because I'm not a "clever engineer" and I don't exactly know why everything happens. I just collect data from experience and I enjoy talking about kart handling and sharing what I've learned from my experiences. People ask for my help so I try to help with what I can.
From now on, maybe we should just be making just "Ask Chris Parks" threads because he has "groundbreaking" ideas and he's "way ahead of the Europeans".
Just remember that karts aren't tuned in test labs or on engineering rigs. They're tuned under ever-changing conditions with thousands of variables.
Since I've never "tuned an IndyCar" or don't have a degree in "chassis engineering" I guess I'm not competent enough to post here anymore.
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Rob Kozakowski
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 286
Location: Canada, Alberta, Edmonton
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| Posted: Thu Mar 14, 2013 9:54 pm Post subject: |
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Chris, I certainly appreciate that a lot of that old discussion fom a few years go was interesting, and potentially VERY informative, but...
It was also often TOO in-depth for the average guy.
Sometimes the simple generalization helps more than the full theoretical detailed analysis. Especially when there were often times that consensus was never reached on the in-depth analysis.
I miss trying to understand what was discussed back then, but there's nothing wrong with "today's" EKN either. |
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JIM SILVERHEELS
Joined: 22 Jul 2006
Posts: 595
Location: United States, Massachusetts, LUDLOW
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| Posted: Fri Mar 15, 2013 10:31 am Post subject: TJ |
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TJ, just to let ya know I sincerely appreciate the help you gave me here on the forum.
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JIM SILVERHEELS
Joined: 22 Jul 2006
Posts: 595
Location: United States, Massachusetts, LUDLOW
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| Posted: Fri Mar 22, 2013 1:54 pm Post subject: Just Thinkin |
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Was sitting in front of the kart today and couldn't help but think negative camber would let the kart rotate more if the tires had alot of air pressure and positive camber wiould let it rotate better if the tire pressure was low. Just thinking out loud.
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