Tag Masters

Carl Freese · Posted: Fri Jan 25, 2013 9:15 am Post subject:

I think that Brian hit it on the head! If a driver is over 200 lbs. then under the current weight structure there is no real chance to be competitive with the Leopard weight as it is now. I am right around 195 with my helmet and I can make the weight with a Leopard, but I have no wiggle room. So I run the Rok and run 3/4 tank of fuel and about 20 lbs on the kart that gives me a chance to adjust weight where I need it.
The only way the Masters class can work with a single engine is if the minimum weight is based on a driver that is 225 lbs. That being said, the current system seems to be working well so I wouldn't change it. If you are worried about attracting new people to the sport then the shops/dealers need to actually educate the people and steer them to the best package for their weight combination. Not just what engine that they want to sell to them! Anyone that is serious about getting into the sport should be educated about the engine choices based on their weight.
Just my .02??
Carl

Brian McHattie · Joined: 28 Jan 2002 Posts: 386

I've been trying to be a bit quiet up to this point about everyone saying its engine of the track scenario if possible. I highly disagree with that. I race all over the country, SKUSA, RIGP, WKA (on occasion), FWT and race the same engine package everywhere we go. I've won in every sanctioning body with the same engine package on a multitude of track layouts, from Ocala Gran Prix to RIGP, all utilizing the same engine package. I believe that if the driver concentrates on maximizing their CHASSIS package and setup, any engine package can win in masters.

The excuse thrown about of you need a leopard here, and a ROK there, and a Motori at another is just plain BS, any engine package can win on any given day with a competant driver on a properly setup and good handling kart.
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Chris Rock · Joined: 15 Aug 2002 Posts: 338

Andy Seesemann · Posted: Fri Jan 25, 2013 12:08 pm Post subject:

No, no, no, no McHattie,

You're totally wrong.

Haven't you heard people talk at the track?

It's always the engine.......

Rolling Eyes

A
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Keith Bridgeman · Posted: Fri Jan 25, 2013 1:02 pm Post subject:

Do Tag Senior and Master guys that run regionally or nationally really have different engines? That can't be the norm. How many that are posting on this thread do that? Nuts!

Spec is ok for kids classes and maybe some senior stuff but if you can't afford an open engine format as a master thats odd.
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Joe Palmer · Posted: Fri Jan 25, 2013 3:43 pm Post subject:

Dan Haynes · Posted: Fri Jan 25, 2013 9:04 pm Post subject:

I think quite a few of the front runners in TaG Senior have multiple engine packages. At least a few years ago they did. I know Bujdoso had a TT and a Leopard. I think Kyle Smith had each. Beasley had a few of each of them. Can't say for sure but I think Chelootz had a Rotax at a few events.

I can't say for sure that the particular track determined which engine they ran that weekend, or whether or not there was any advantage gained by it, but for some reason they had more than one package.

I remember one year Rotax was kicking butt at Daytona. McMurray was running whatever he showed up with and finished about 23rd or so. That night he rented a Rotax and still finished in the 20's the next day. I think a few guys switched to the Rotax for the second day.

We need 30lbs. of lead for Leopard so TT or anything heavier is pretty much out of the question for us.
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Marco Oldhafer · Posted: Sat Jan 26, 2013 2:34 pm Post subject:

Jeff Salak · Posted: Sat Jan 26, 2013 3:12 pm Post subject:

Marco Oldhafer · Posted: Sat Jan 26, 2013 6:49 pm Post subject:

Jeff,

It's all about the new guy without them we have no sport !!!

You are a 100% right the rules are never the same and that is the the fault of the industry and the people that make those rules Sad

How about if I where to tell you that all major series in the US would go to a single engine with one set of rules, would that work for you ???

Why the hell do we not follow CIK and have the KF program??? I guess it makes to much sense to write rules and then create the class!!

I will go out on the limb and say that the reason for these multi engine classes is MONEY. First reason for some racers to buy more than one engine because they will believe one has an advantage here or there. Second because all the poor uneducated racers that buy the wrong engine and have to buy again when they find out what package works for their weight. This all puts money in some ones pocket. Look at the parilla class in WKA perfect example. You have a multi engine class why create another with the same setup .....MONEY and who pays,the racer to no benefit to him!!

You are right when you say keep existing racers happy but I am not happy just having existing racers it is about having new competition and having a thousand racers intead of a two hundred. I am sure we can agree since it seems you really like competition.

Masters FACT...... we ran the Formula 125 (Leopard only 380LBS) program along a local masters tag class at a club series from 2005 to 2011 The #'s were 6 to 8 for masters and 14 to 20 for F125. BTW whats up with the masters age 32 ask a 55 year old if that is cool.
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Russell Stevens · Joined: 15 Oct 2012 Posts: 100

If this is about getting more folks into the sport in this age bracket you have to look at your target audience.
I'm 40 years old and was looking for one local track to race something at as a weekend warrior.
Dirt track "Pure stock" car built "per the rules" - $2500
Dirt track "Pure stock" car built "per what is actually on the track racing" - $8000
Sportsman Modified (used chassis new sealed engine - competative car) - $10,000
What pushed my family to karting wasn't price, it was the attitude at the track. In dirt track "Pure stock" everyone in the pits proclaims loudly that all the cars are legal, and complain quietly about what the "other guy" is getting past tech. Looking over the cars over the course of a year and a half you could clearly see that it was the wild west, and more about cheating than good racing. The Sportsman guys were more closely regulated, however there was a closed attitude to new folks, and I wound up hanging around with the Big Block folks to learn anything about the chassis setup.
We went to the local kart track on a whim and it was like a breath of fresh air. Friendly folks, willing to share information with the new folks. We found out what classes were out for blood on the track and what classes were racing clean. I picked Tag SR (which is composed of 90% master age drivers) for myself and a sealed Animal class for my son. We have put about the same amount of money into this racing program as we would have needed for either of the dirt classes mentioned above. It wasn't really a financial decision. It was the attitude at the track.
We have no desire to travel race, and know that none of us are racing at that level. Racing at that level would require as much money in as the dirt track, and have a zero payout at the checkered flag. Not very enticing. Harcore racers have elsewhere to go for the same kind of money as karting. There is already a spec class in the US it's Rotax. There are a lot of ways to go racing that can cost close to the same as karting. You have to look at making the sport friendly, with clearly defined and easily understood rules. You have to start having new driver clinics, and the dealers / importers have to start offering free chassis and engine tuning classes. You have to look at what strengths the sport has, and what it can offer that no other form of racing can offer.
"We need a spec engine to get the drivers to come out and play" is not the answer. On a regional or national level in any other form of racing multiple backup cars, engines, transmissions, etc. are the norm. If you are balking at having a second $3000 kart engine that would be needed to be competative at that level, you might want to consider racing locally and helping to build the karting base there. The other option is that maybe you need to work on another part of your racing program to make up the difference in lap times that is being blamed on the engine package.
The only truth is racing is that someone will come in and out-spend the competition. Whether it's a sealed "spec" engine with hand picked and matched parts, or having a seperate engine and chassis that has a performance advantage at each track. There is no way to regulate this out of the sport. Most of the new guys at our track are SR. MX racers who went out and bought used moto shifters. They are all slower than the TAG class, but are having a blast doing it. Keeping karting fun, and being friendly and accessable in the pits is what is needed if you want new folks to come, and then stay in the sport.
Just the oppinion of a new guy.
Rusty

Jeff Salak · Posted: Sun Jan 27, 2013 2:59 pm Post subject:

Marco,

Im just trying to keep on one topic. Existing Masters racers. This topic wasnt about trying to get newbie Tag Masters into the sport. Thats another can of worms.

All I want is that one simple question answered about engine choices. One choice with leopard or all Tag engines.

For Tag Masters Im not for one engine. Im for one set of rules with all engines run at every track.

Cant leave the guys with other Tag engines hung out to dry. Numbers are WAY to low to limit it to one engine format.

Im more interested in whoever makes new rules for MASTERS. That they take a look at the numbers with existing racers with what engines racers run. Understand the want and needs of what best will keep the Masters a successful class at future events.

If you keep changing rules and piss people off. This isnt good for growth of sport. People leave and never have anything good to take away or say is a very bad thing!

Paul Montopoli · Posted: Sun Jan 27, 2013 7:57 pm Post subject:

Marco Oldhafer · Posted: Mon Jan 28, 2013 4:30 pm Post subject:

Jeff,
I understand there are many issues..... I was trying to make a point!! If a series supports a one engine Masters it will grow faster than a multiple engine class!!! The current multi engine tag rules are very difficult to understand and hurt attendance. You said it ........#'s....... are low enough and that is with the current multi engine program.

Paul,
I was not trying to be sarcastic I just did not know of any other sports that did masters programs. I am not opposed to masters but I am against 15 classes with five racers each.

The one thing that I find odd having the masters age at 32 and then you could be 200lbs and 15 years old. If a series has a good weight it will split the two groups light and heavy naturally with no need for masters. Intern creating larger groups with more excitement and added track time. Souns like a win win.
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