Karting too advanced for its' own good?

[Ted Hamilton]

I'm curious what the prevailing attitude is among those who consider karting as an end to itself, not a "stepping stone" to other forms of racing.

Back in the 60's/70's tracks seemed to be shorter and narrower, and the karts were that way too. I'm curious if karts and tracks have developed to the point where they're too fast/too expensive for the average hobbyist...

Hence the poll. What are your thoughts? If karts were more like the vintage sidewinders with bumpers and nerfs only, 70 duro tires, with 3.5" fronts and 5" rears with a 35" wide rear axle, and tracks were shorter with more turns and less width, would you be:

LESS inclined to race,
MORE inclined to race,
INDIFFERENT....

Thoughts?

I wonder if a "modern vintage" concept would succeed....
_________________
Owner, www.hamiltonhelmets.com // UAS Racer #76 // Karting for karting's sake...keep it fun!

[TJ Koyen]

The results of this poll will be skewed toward the demographic of this forum.

I like karting the way it is now. If it's too fast for some, then there's always slower classes like Yamaha or Clone.
_________________
T.J. Koyen
OKTANE VISUAL - Custom Helmet Paint & Graphic Design
www.oktanevisual.com
www.facebook.com/oktanevisual
--------------------------
DB Motorsports
Exprit/Leopard

[Jon Romenesko]

Too fast? No. Many of us get into this because we love the speed. Speed is fun!

Too expensive? There's no question. Most of my buddies wince at a $35 session for 8 minutes at the indoor track, saying its too expensive. They would certainly heart attack if they knew what it cost to play in this hobby. But that's the nature of the racing beast. Everything is relative, and relative to most other Motorsports....this is a pretty good deal!

Too advanced? I would say yes. I know that we all want karting to appeal to the masses and make it easier, but I think it's gotten a bit out of control. Self starting karts, water cooling, power valves, batteries, alternators, starters, 420lb kart weights, front brakes, hand controlled brakes...it's all become pretty complicated.

Some of the innovations were necessary (water cooling), and it's great to be able to push a button and go racing (TaG). But all of these aren't always reliable, and when they break it can be a big headache. I can't even count the number of times I've seen a new guy with a TaG engine cranking away but it won't start. It draws a crowd of people trying to help, but they new guy is endlessly frustrated with his new 'easy to use, low maintenance engine'. I see lots of guys get fed up, give up, and sell their stuff...thats sad. I thought karts were supposed to be simple fun.

I'd like to see us go back to basics a bit. Harder tires and simpler kart formulas for a start. The tracks I'm fine with, I love long tracks, fast tracks, technical tracks. I'd race on whatever was available to me. The wider tracks are safer too, that's important.

But I think the biggest 'problem' lies in our engine formulas, not the chassis.
_________________
GP10/CR125
S2 Semi-Pro Stock Moto - SKUSA Rocky Mountain ProKart Challenge

http://theslipangle.com/

"When you're racing, it's life. Anything that happens before or after...it's just waiting"
--Steve McQueen, LeMans

[John Matthews]

Shifters and TaG's are awesome machines that offer relative performance far greater than any other form of racing attainable to an average professional salary man or woman.

The problem is, well....

I'll give it a name.

"The Cesar Effect"

Since such high performance equipment is available at a modest price people are inclined to say "I'll just get the best one" without any real understanding of what they're getting into. When I became an Easykart dealer I called my dad and gave him the specs of what I was selling. His response? No way it has 28 horsepower.... Well, it does and what that can do to your body in conjunction with sticky tires can be pretty violent at times. As people step up from rental karts there really isn't anything that can prepare most of them for the transition to full blown 125cc racing. Some will push through the pain but many will walk away because frankly it scares the pi$$ out of them. I lost more sales than I made by giving test rides to potential racers wanting to move up from rentals.

I do consider myself an experienced driver. Karts, SCCA, driving instructor, etc. But even though I had plenty of opportunity I never raced in TaG. I just find the power level of World Formula or KT100 to be more comfortable and less hectic. Obviously everyone won't feel this way but if we want people to join the sport we need to make it less likely to hurt them the first time they go out on track. The step up from rentals, or even SCCA racing is really just too large with the current CIK spec machinery.

One other thing to consider. Even though there are lots of 30 something engineer types that really want to go 100mph on a shifter the real sweet spot in karting is a 12-year-old kid that's not particularly athletic (don't ask me how I know this). At many tracks this kid is allowed to run during the same practice session as Mr. "I just bought a new shifter and I'm gonna be real fast" guy. I had a special signal with my daughter for her to come in when I saw these guys going out on track. Fortunately my wife wasn't there watching this

Now I'm not saying that people shouldn't have their fun. Just that every other sport makes you earn the privilege of competing in the top ranks by proving you're capable of it. Tracks really should require every driver to complete a training course, not just those who intend to race, it would make things safer AND keep a whole lot of new drivers participating rather than selling off their stuff and taking up golf.

So, karting isn't too fast, expensive, or advanced. It's just too much of that for many of the people that would like to try it out. That's why clone racing on dirt ovals is so popular

Cheers,
_________________
John Matthews
Heartbeat Power, LLC.

[Jeremy Inns]

Like any other motor sport it has evolved with time, what we have now has been built to suit us. I really like the older karts of the 70's - 80's but racing has changed, just look at F1 in 10 years the cars are almost nothing alike, they just follow the same basics.

I'm new to the sport but it's pretty easy to get to know the basics if you understand racing. I don't think karting should advance much more, karting should just stay in the same guide lines as they were in the older days, harder tires, more simple engines etc.

I like the idea of a modern vintage class. A simple engine, say a Yamaha with a modern chassis in a vintage design. Keep tires and wheels the same though, it would cost more to design and make a older type tire I think.

- Jeremy
_________________
Arrow X2-28N coming soon

[Tom Varner]

SCCA reaquires a two day drivers school to get a novice or regional lisence - can't run National races untill you complete a certain numbr of regional races - (at least it used to be that way)

WKA and karting need to do the same - make new people go through a schoool and race at the club level for a perod of time before they can run a natinal race -

club racing is dying - and that is the entry point for new karters -

[Byron Rothenhoefer]

[John Matthews]

[Rob Kozakowski]

Too fast? No. Karts have always been fast, as they should be.

Too expensive? Not necessarily - there's always a "place" for the "big guns". But there's not always enough "less expensive" options in many regions for the "club" guys these days. And that's not just talking engines and chassis, it goes for the tires as well.

Too complex / technical / advanced? This is where I think CIK karting is going wrong and hurting things everywhere...

Engines... KF at the top is a disaster. It's hurt elite karting. It's also hurt grassroots karting - because TAG is now cheap in comparison, and I think this is why TAG is now almost seen as "grassroots" by many people. The problem being that TAG is still expensive to get into and repair when things go wrong, compared to a KT.

In the USA, there are at least some efforts to improve this. The new Yamaha "pipe" seems a reasonable compromise between de-tuning to get longevity (engine and clutch), while also maintaining reasonable speed (can isn't fast enough for a lot of people). I know some people are complaining about extra cost to re-prep engines, but for the person just getting into the sport, this seems a great move. In Canada we're stuck with 4-cycle or Rotax - it kind of sucks.

Chassis... They're turning into tanks. Modern karts look cool, but they aren't nearly as simple as they should be. I don't know if that's a "fault" of the chassis per se, or if it's more the need to keep up with changes to engines like radiators (water vs air cooled), batteries for on-board starters (TAG vs direct drive, etc), mounts for silencers (modern exhaust vs tuned pipe), etc.; and stickier tires.

When it comes to all the plastic, I'm not convinced that anything more than 2 side pods are really needed either.

Tires... This is where the "club" racer is really getting killed. Hard tires allow a skilled driver, who may not be able to afford the seat time to become a good chassis tuner, to compete with the "big guys" - on several levels.

Soft tires generally require you to carry and continuously tune with various axles, hubs, wheels, etc. They also require a lot more chassis tuning, and more "tuneable" chassis, including wider track widths. This is great at the top level for teaching drivers with bigger goals, but it sucks for the guy who shows up at the track by himself and just wants to drive, check tire pressures, and maybe play with track width. All of this requires lots of seat time and more money - not good for the "club" racer.

In my opinion, the biggest change to make is that club racing should be done on the hardest tires you can find. It will make racing much easier and much less expensive for the club guys with older chassis.

[Alan Dove]

Karting and the ‘Stepping-Stone’ Dogma

That's my views on the stepping stone tag.

With regard to speed, modern karts aren't all that fast. not compared to the 130-140kg 100cc era with sticky tyres. They were properly properly fast. Vroom even published a back to back test with Senna's 1979 DAP VS KF2. Guess which one won?

When we talking about karting and advancement we have to be careful. Many thought the economy of 2006 was 'advanced'... turned out it was a complete made-up illusion. I hesitate to use the word advancements because there's nothing on a modern tag that is really 'new' technology.

But I think a return to the 60s style of karts is maybe one step too far. But in reality the CIK are serisouly looking into a return to kart engines without tag systems. Maxter's latest engine the Tiene RXX is a full blow direct drive no tag no clutch no powervalve engine.
_________________
Karting1.com - Home of the most awesome karting stuff on the net.

[Rob Kozakowski]

double post

[Jon Romenesko]

[George Sunderland]

There's a reason why the vast majority of concession/beach kart tracks are on very slippery surfaces---some even metal. Sliding (and trying to control it)=FUN.

The high grip follow the leader style racing we have now is a bore requiring little driving skill. Boring to watch and boring to participate in. I will say, even though modern karts are way too expensive, in many aspects, they are far less complicated than they used to. Anybody who remembers having to put the right # of bb's into a Bystrom clutch or trying to get a Mac carb to behave for any length of time would surely agree. And if you think adjusting a chassis is tough now, try figuring out the old hang the frame off the tailgate/cinder block and jumping on the chassis to tweak it just right method. Personally hate them,but the self-starting aspect of TaGsis is VERY appealing to Joe Public. The first comment from almost every newbie 'I've brought in related to how much of a pain it is to mess with remote starters not to mention the fact you need 2 people to crank it up.

[Rob Bartley]

[Greg Wright]