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| If you could have any current F1 driver for your team, who would you pick? |
| "Eyebrow" Alonso |
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24% |
[ 7 ] |
| "Hat Trick" Vettel |
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34% |
[ 10 ] |
| "I'm a proper Brit" Button |
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3% |
[ 1 ] |
| "Gotta Have A Merc" Hamilton |
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20% |
[ 6 ] |
| "Leave me alone" Kimi |
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17% |
[ 5 ] |
| None of the above - I'd go for one of the young lions |
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0% |
[ 0 ] |
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| Total Votes : 29 |
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Chris Livengood
Joined: 24 Jul 2001
Posts: 2432
Location: United States, Pennsylvania, Da Burgh
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joseph hollinger
Joined: 12 Sep 2002
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Location: United States, California, san francisco
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 Posted: Thu Jan 10, 2013 9:04 am Post subject: |
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And it has certainly been far and away the best car over the last three years.
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Tim Doll
Joined: 18 Jul 2001
Posts: 2643
Location: United States, Washington,
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| Posted: Thu Jan 10, 2013 9:30 am Post subject: |
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| Chris Livengood wrote: | | Also, all this talk that the RedBull wasn't the best car is complete crap. On the season as a whole, it sure as heck was the best car. |
You could make a pretty good case that, mid-season the Red Bull was best (and it was clearly better in low speed stuff). But the McLaren was clearly the best (or at least the fastest) at both the beginning and late season. Seriously, I think most pundits believe the 2012 season was McLaren's to loose - which they did through a combination of mechanical and driver unreliability.
The Red Bull was clearly the best car in 2011 (I think the only times Vettel wasn't on the podium is when he DNF'ed), and it was always close in 2010 and 2012. But it also had it's share of reliability issues - while the Ferrari was been dead nuts reliable (quick check, when was the last time Alonso's Ferrari DNF'ed due to a mechanical failure?).
On the average, has the Red Bull been the best car over the last three years? Probably. But I think it's a stretch to say it was clearly 'best' in 2010 and 2012.
Tim
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Chris Livengood
Joined: 24 Jul 2001
Posts: 2432
Location: United States, Pennsylvania, Da Burgh
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| Posted: Thu Jan 10, 2013 9:34 am Post subject: |
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| Tim Doll wrote: | | Chris Livengood wrote: | | Also, all this talk that the RedBull wasn't the best car is complete crap. On the season as a whole, it sure as heck was the best car. |
You could make a pretty good case that, mid-season the Red Bull was best (and it was clearly better in low speed stuff). But the McLaren was clearly the best (or at least the fastest) at both the beginning and late season. Seriously, I think most pundits believe the 2012 season was McLaren's to loose - which they did through a combination of mechanical and driver unreliability.
The Red Bull was clearly the best car in 2011 (I think the only times Vettel wasn't on the podium is when he DNF'ed), and it was always close in 2010 and 2012. But it also had it's share of reliability issues - while the Ferrari was been dead nuts reliable (quick check, when was the last time Alonso's Ferrari DNF'ed due to a mechanical failure?).
On the average, has the Red Bull been the best car over the last three years? Probably. But I think it's a stretch to say it was clearly 'best' in 2010 and 2012.
Tim |
You and the pundits you speak of (source?) seem to be confusing the fastest car with the best car.
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TJ Koyen
Joined: 03 Oct 2004
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| Posted: Thu Jan 10, 2013 10:16 am Post subject: |
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Well I think we're all agreeing the Ferrari was NOT the best or fastest car and Alonso still managed to take the title down to the final race. He beat Hamilton and he beat Vettel for most of the season in a car that wasn't as good as their's by up to a 1 sec in qualifying at some races. So HOW is he not better?
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Adrian Baran
Joined: 01 Jan 2013
Posts: 44
Location: United States, New York, Staten Island
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| Posted: Thu Jan 10, 2013 11:14 am Post subject: |
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If Robert Kubica didn't have that awful accident in 2011 I really think I'd take him. Mistake free, and got the most out of his car all the time.
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Adrian Baran
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TJ Koyen
Joined: 03 Oct 2004
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| Posted: Thu Jan 10, 2013 11:48 am Post subject: |
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| Adrian Baran wrote: | | If Robert Kubica didn't have that awful accident in 2011 I really think I'd take him. Mistake free, and got the most out of his car all the time. |
Agreed. Ferrari had the same opinion, as I think he was on the list of candidates to replace Massa quite soon until he had his accident. He was very much like Alonso in his driving style and strengths. Plus him and Alonso got along well and Alonso always praised him.
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joseph hollinger
Joined: 12 Sep 2002
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Location: United States, California, san francisco
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| Posted: Thu Jan 10, 2013 11:55 am Post subject: |
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| TJ Koyen wrote: | | Well I think we're all agreeing the Ferrari was NOT the best or fastest car and Alonso still managed to take the title down to the final race. He beat Hamilton and he beat Vettel for most of the season in a car that wasn't as good as their's by up to a 1 sec in qualifying at some races. So HOW is he not better? |
Puncture, failed fuel pressure, failed gearbox, crashed out by Hulkenberg, crashed out by RoGro. That's almost a third of the races right there and I didn't even look at the rest. Slow and steady wins the race.
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Chris Livengood
Joined: 24 Jul 2001
Posts: 2432
Location: United States, Pennsylvania, Da Burgh
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| Posted: Thu Jan 10, 2013 12:04 pm Post subject: |
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| joseph hollinger wrote: |
Puncture, failed fuel pressure, failed gearbox, crashed out by Hulkenberg, crashed out by RoGro. That's almost a third of the races right there and I didn't even look at the rest. Slow and steady wins the race. |
If this or that hadn't happened in my races I would have won every one of them. As a result, i'm not the best.
Fact is, it doesn't matter what happened to Vettel, he squeaked out the championship in a clearly superior car (compared to the Ferrari). Good on him, that doesn't change the fact that Alonso vastly out performed his ride, and did so week in and week out.
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joseph hollinger
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| Posted: Thu Jan 10, 2013 12:08 pm Post subject: |
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That doesn't change the fact that there is an element of randomness in all of this. Hamiliton may be a twit, but he had some pretty awful luck this year and Alonso didn't. That's not down to either of them. Had Hamilton's luck been different, he would have beat Fernando in the championship and we wouldn't be having this discussion right now.
Put them back in equal cars and Hamiliton will get right back to crushing Alonso.
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Chris Livengood
Joined: 24 Jul 2001
Posts: 2432
Location: United States, Pennsylvania, Da Burgh
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| Posted: Thu Jan 10, 2013 12:15 pm Post subject: |
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I don't know that's true. You won't ignore luck, but you will ignore environmental factors of the two drivers competition while both McLaren.
The only real question surrounding Hamilton is the length time he needs to weasel his way out of Mercedes when it's a complete dog again. He's certainly not capable of carrying a crap car, and has shown little propensity for developing.
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Jeff DeMello
Joined: 13 Sep 2002
Posts: 2213
Location: United States, Pittsburgh Pa,
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| Posted: Thu Jan 10, 2013 1:10 pm Post subject: |
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I'd pick Chris Livengood as my F1 driver..
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Jeff DeMello
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Dan Haynes
Joined: 17 Sep 2007
Posts: 2372
Location: United States, Pennsylvania, Ellwood City
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| Posted: Thu Jan 10, 2013 2:33 pm Post subject: |
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And I was going to pick DeMello! 
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Blaise Haynes
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Tim Doll
Joined: 18 Jul 2001
Posts: 2643
Location: United States, Washington,
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| Posted: Thu Jan 10, 2013 3:06 pm Post subject: |
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| Chris Livengood wrote: | | You and the pundits you speak of (source?) seem to be confusing the fastest car with the best car. |
For sources, I'd start with the Speed Channel commentators who were convinced that McLaren would dominate the 2012 season (at least until Alonso won the second race). Remember, this was the most closely contested F1 season in memory - 7 different winners in the first 7 races.
Just to throw a little more fuel on the fire, in 2012:
McLaren won 7 races (4 for Hamilton, 3 for Button)
Red Bull won 7 races (5 for Vettel, 2 for Webber)
Ferrari won 3 races (all Alonso)
Mercedes (Rosberg), Williams (Maldonado), and Lotus (Kimi) each won one.
Alonso DNF'd twice - both due to first lap contact (BTW, I can't confirm but I don't think Alonso has ever had a mechanical DNF with Ferrari).
Vettel DNF'd twice - both mechanical, and one race out of the points due to contact with a lapped car (puncture), lost two positions/5 points due to a questionable post race penalty.
Hamilton DNF'd six times - I believe two were due to contact, four mechanical
Kimi did not DNF (finished out of the points one race due to an off)
Button - one mechanical DNF, one contact DNF, one race out of the points due to contact and a botched pit stop, one race out of the points due to a puncture (and two races out of the points because he was slow).
Tim
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Chris Hurst
Joined: 27 Jul 2007
Posts: 569
Location: United States, California,
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| Posted: Thu Jan 10, 2013 8:54 pm Post subject: |
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| Juan D Gomez wrote: | All really good and valid points.
But if I was a team manager, I wouldn't waste my time trying to get a world champion in my team.
I'll rather spend my money to get the genius of Adrian Newey on board to design the car. I could do this for half the price I could get Alonso or any of the other drivers mentioned.
Then, I'll wait for them to come knocking on my door for a chance to drive a championship winning car.  |
Thats an excellent point. Part of me thinks at this level of motor sport almost any of the big names would have a serious chance if they were in the best car. I think it really is a 50/50 split of driver / equipment when it comes to F1. |
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