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Robert Lawson
Joined: 10 Nov 2001
Posts: 2219
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 Posted: Tue Aug 07, 2012 2:43 pm Post subject: Special project.....engine selection? |
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Guys,
I've cruzed through all the threads here trying to get an idea ($) which way to go engine wise, with my upcoming Winter project.
First let me explain that this is NOT a competition vehicle. It is simply a toy to get new guys a first hand look at laydowns without being overwelmed!
I have a very good Margay enduro chassis and want to put a "cheap" 4 stroke on it to run long road racing tracks. I have many questions......
LO206: I was told by Dave Larson himself that this engine could be bought as a package (carb, pipe, clutch, etc.) "drop it on" for $500.
Clone: I'm a little leary about this. Don't want to spend big bucks on upgrades although I do understand the saftey issues.
WF: Out of my range and probably more performance than needed.
Honda GX: I do have access to these at little or no cost, some need lots of work some not so much.
Q1. Will the Honda need "add-ons" to run on these big tracks????
Q2. Can the Clone be upgraded and safely run on road courses with Honda parts installed? (This would be ideal simply because it's a new base to start from and the parts are free!)
Q3. Can I really get an LO206 ready to go for $500?????
I will not need to comply to any "rules" as this will be a testday kart. Want to run gas not alky, good strong clutch that will hold up to newbies, long track pipe preffered but not real important. Speed and rev's are not important, it's for newbies. It will have to make some speed for them to get the feeling, ya know???
What caught my eye about the Clone was obviously price, and that is important. Not being cheap fellas but I won't ever drive it so I find it tough to spend more than absolutely necessarry.
All input is welcome......I'm not on either side of the fence!
Thanks Guys!
RPM |
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Tim Salvino
Joined: 20 Nov 2010
Posts: 257
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| Posted: Tue Aug 07, 2012 3:39 pm Post subject: |
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LO206 is perfect for your needs. But no, its not $500 for the complete kit. $640 from Faster Motors - http://www.fastermotors.net/ANIMALENGINES.html
You bolt it on, and just run it. All you have to do is add gas and change the oil every few hours.
Clone will come out to about the same price after getting it ready to run at 6000rpms for extended periods of time. Similar maintenance costs.
Honda will need the same add-ons as a clone.
Filter+adaptor - $30?
Jets drilled or just buy blueprinted carb - $50
Aluminum flywheel - $100
Clearanced rod - just hone the stock one out to .003" clearance
AKRA legal cam - $20-50
Top plate - $25
The clone may come out a bit cheaper in the end, but it requires work to get it there. The LO206 is just a bolt on and go engine. |
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Robert Lawson
Joined: 10 Nov 2001
Posts: 2219
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| Posted: Wed Aug 08, 2012 1:28 pm Post subject: |
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I know this is a well worn question but.....
Why does a Clone & Honda need a cam, flywheel, carb, etc.???? What is a "top plate"?
I mean, I can guess why.....the parts are crap. But, is it a design flaw or a material flaw??? Isn't the Honda made of better parts??
Remember, I'm using this as an intro tool...do I really need a fancy filter and adapter???? Heck, I plan on using the pull starter!!!!!
How 'bout a clutch? Need low maintenance and durability, any suggestions???
The LO206 is looking better all the time. Is it ungoverned? I like this option because it has a class in RR (CES) and I can sell it off if the project doesn't gain speed (no pun intended!).
RPM |
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Bernie Lacotta
Joined: 21 Mar 2006
Posts: 166
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| Posted: Wed Aug 08, 2012 2:12 pm Post subject: |
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| Robert Lawson wrote: | I know this is a well worn question but.....
Why does a Clone & Honda need a cam, flywheel, carb, etc.???? What is a "top plate"?
I mean, I can guess why.....the parts are crap. But, is it a design flaw or a material flaw??? Isn't the Honda made of better parts??
Remember, I'm using this as an intro tool...do I really need a fancy filter and adapter???? Heck, I plan on using the pull starter!!!!!
How 'bout a clutch? Need low maintenance and durability, any suggestions???
Thr LO 206 has a 6100 =/- RPM limiter built into the coil. You will have to add a header,muffler,air cleaner to the engine. As mentioned ,check with Jimbo at Faster Motors ( www.fastermotors.net ) as he has a complete package available.
The clones and Hondas need the additional parts to convert from industrial engine status to race engine status. Seriously,the 206 would be my pick by a wide margin.
The LO206 is looking better all the time. Is it ungoverned? I like this option because it has a class in RR (CES) and I can sell it off if the project doesn't gain speed (no pun intended!).
RPM |
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I breathe ,therefore,I race |
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Tim Salvino
Joined: 20 Nov 2010
Posts: 257
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| Posted: Wed Aug 08, 2012 5:20 pm Post subject: |
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| Robert Lawson wrote: | I know this is a well worn question but.....
Why does a Clone & Honda need a cam, flywheel, carb, etc.???? What is a "top plate"?
I mean, I can guess why.....the parts are crap. But, is it a design flaw or a material flaw??? Isn't the Honda made of better parts??
Remember, I'm using this as an intro tool...do I really need a fancy filter and adapter???? Heck, I plan on using the pull starter!!!!!
How 'bout a clutch? Need low maintenance and durability, any suggestions???
The LO206 is looking better all the time. Is it ungoverned? I like this option because it has a class in RR (CES) and I can sell it off if the project doesn't gain speed (no pun intended!).
RPM |
Honestly, for your uses, you dont need anything but a throttle adaptor (to hook the karts throttle to the engine), a motor mount, a fuel pump (remove tank on engine), and a clutch. But then you have a bone stock indutrial engine on a kart. Who knows how long it will last before something happens... (actually, you have a HIGH chance that the rod will stick within 10 hours, if its a clone....)
Go with the LO206. It has a 6100 rpm rev limiter, and is built like a tank. And you could probably sell it off for pretty close to what you paid for it. And there is a class (a few, actually) that you could race it in if you wanted to.
And, the Lo206 kit i posted a link to includes a clutch. A Noram GE, which is as solid as you can get! The ONLY thing you need besides that kit is a motor mount, and you can get one that will fit most any type of four cycle here - http://www.bmikarts.com/shop/?shop=1&cat=166 $41. Any of the first 5 will work, just find out the angle you need for the air filter to clear the rear tire. If in doubt, just get the 15* mount. |
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John Matthews
Joined: 04 Dec 2004
Posts: 1986
Location: United States, Michigan, Williamsburg
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| Posted: Wed Aug 08, 2012 7:14 pm Post subject: |
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| Robert Lawson wrote: | I know this is a well worn question but.....
Why does a Clone & Honda need a cam, flywheel, carb, etc.???? What is a "top plate"?
I mean, I can guess why.....the parts are crap. But, is it a design flaw or a material flaw??? Isn't the Honda made of better parts??
Remember, I'm using this as an intro tool...do I really need a fancy filter and adapter???? Heck, I plan on using the pull starter!!!!!
How 'bout a clutch? Need low maintenance and durability, any suggestions???
The LO206 is looking better all the time. Is it ungoverned? I like this option because it has a class in RR (CES) and I can sell it off if the project doesn't gain speed (no pun intended!).
RPM |
I'm about as "worn" as it comes when it comes to this but I'll give it a shot.
Because it's not a racing motor....
Yes, the genuine Honda is a better motor but it's still built to run a pressure washer, not run around at 6000 rpm on a race kart.
The top plate isn't necessary but it helps mount the fuel pump and throttle linkage. Both Max Torque and Noram make reliable, inexpensive clutches.
Just for background I put my first "clone" on a kart back in 2006 for almost exactly the same reasons you're building your project. I've built all the different OHV 4 stroke motors you mentioned and quite a few you didn't all the way up to 45hp billet monsters.
If you want to go with a clone don't fool around, buy the package from ARC and build it right or buy a used one from a dirt oval guy. You won't win any converts with a motor straight from Harbor Freight. Read the BSP Project rules and go look at the other kart forum to get an idea of what the difference is.
But, if you actually want people to get involved and race definitely go with the LO206. It makes a great package for beginners and since there's no "special, blueprinted, level 5, gotta have one built by my brother-in-law to win package" beginners can feel like they aren't gonna get outspent and out motored. You'll just confuse people if you get them hooked then tell them they need a whole different engine package to actually race IMHO. If you already have the class where you race I think it's a no brainer 
JMHO,
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John Matthews
Heartbeat Power, LLC. |
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Robert Lawson
Joined: 10 Nov 2001
Posts: 2219
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| Posted: Thu Aug 09, 2012 2:17 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks Guys, all this helps clear things up.
My interest is 2 fold, I also work at an indoor karting facility.
On that side, I was hoping to replace Hondas with Clones but it doesn't look like that will be possible. We use the Honda gear reduction wet clutch with a belt drive. The PTO end of the Honda crank is 22 mm and I'm told the Clone is 3/4" so our gear reduction hub is too big. Yes, a bushing would solve the fit problem but the maintnance on a bushing that thin, with a slot though it, could be a nightmare.
But..... cost reduction is what were looking for there as well so it may be an option. I'll have to try one and see what happens!
As for the laydown project that 206 is the best choice. If I sell the entire package it can be run right there at the same events we attend with our Enduro shifters.
Again, thanks for the help!
RPM |
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John Matthews
Joined: 04 Dec 2004
Posts: 1986
Location: United States, Michigan, Williamsburg
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| Posted: Fri Aug 10, 2012 7:13 am Post subject: |
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| Robert Lawson wrote: | Thanks Guys, all this helps clear things up.
My interest is 2 fold, I also work at an indoor karting facility.
On that side, I was hoping to replace Hondas with Clones but it doesn't look like that will be possible. We use the Honda gear reduction wet clutch with a belt drive. The PTO end of the Honda crank is 22 mm and I'm told the Clone is 3/4" so our gear reduction hub is too big. Yes, a bushing would solve the fit problem but the maintnance on a bushing that thin, with a slot though it, could be a nightmare.
But..... cost reduction is what were looking for there as well so it may be an option. I'll have to try one and see what happens!
As for the laydown project that 206 is the best choice. If I sell the entire package it can be run right there at the same events we attend with our Enduro shifters.
Again, thanks for the help!
RPM |
Good luck with your project, anything folks can do to get more people involved in karting is definitely a good thing 
As for your day job, all kinds of rental and commercial operations choose Genuine Honda engines for durability and reliability. You might want to check with some other indoor operators but I doubt you'll save money in the long run using anything else. That Honda wet clutch system really doesn't have any competition AFAIK, and I think their engines are specifically engineered to work with it.
If I were running an indoor facility and I planned on being in business a long time I'd be looking at electric. More cost up front but I'd think you would really save in maintenance over the long haul. Plus, the savings in HVAC as well as presenting a more pleasant (no fumes) experience for the casual driver and corporate event crowd might justify the extra expense.
Cheers,
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John Matthews
Heartbeat Power, LLC. |
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Robert Lawson
Joined: 10 Nov 2001
Posts: 2219
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| Posted: Sun Aug 12, 2012 10:29 am Post subject: |
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| John Matthews wrote: |
Good luck with your project, anything folks can do to get more people involved in karting is definitely a good thing |
I have always wanted to build a fleet of these karts. Simple, easy, true entry level. I'm a true blue laydown road racer of 30+ years and it breaks my heart to see them disapearing. If nothing else an "All Star" format in these IROC type karts would be cool too. Getting a class of 10-15 newbies....priceless!
Won't go off about the "problems" with RR. Thats another thread!
The indoor situation is short term. Can't elaborate but getting them through the next 10-12 weeks is all I may need to do. The Clone is a good alterative/replacement in this instance.
I'll try to post pic's of the project as it goes. Maybe we can get some interest in new drivers at least doing a testday with us.
RPM |
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Robert Lawson
Joined: 10 Nov 2001
Posts: 2219
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| Posted: Mon Aug 13, 2012 2:30 pm Post subject: |
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I took a Tach to work, the very best reving Honda (GX 160) we have just touches 5K before running out of track.
For the most part, it runs between 3200-3700 most of the lap. It only sees 4K building up to 5K on the long straight.
I think a bone stock Clone will work fine. Add the billet rod and it's more than safe indoors and it's still less than $200!!!!
RPM |
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Tim Salvino
Joined: 20 Nov 2010
Posts: 257
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| Posted: Mon Aug 13, 2012 2:37 pm Post subject: |
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| Robert Lawson wrote: | I took a Tach to work, the very best reving Honda (GX 160) we have just touches 5K before running out of track.
For the most part, it runs between 3200-3700 most of the lap. It only sees 4K building up to 5K on the long straight.
I think a bone stock Clone will work fine. Add the billet rod and it's more than safe indoors and it's still less than $200!!!!
RPM |
Yeah, Clones should work fine for that. You could just leave the governors in them. Maybe find a way to tweak/bend the arm/linkages to raise the rpm to 4500 or so. They should be fine without billet rods at that rpm. |
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Robert Lawson
Joined: 10 Nov 2001
Posts: 2219
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| Posted: Tue Aug 14, 2012 5:15 am Post subject: |
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Thanks Tim, some reassurance always helps!
Will have to get specifics on the Clone to be sure I won't have to change too much to get them on the karts. That will defeat the purpose!
Cost cutting sucks but is necessarry. The parts/repair invoices to this point were catastrophic and a waste with little life expectancy remaining.
RPM |
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Tim Salvino
Joined: 20 Nov 2010
Posts: 257
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| Posted: Tue Aug 14, 2012 8:46 am Post subject: |
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The best part about the clones is not only low initial price, but low parts prices. Several larger shops carry just about every single part in the engine (it probably is every part haha) and the most expensive part is the block at about $45.
If you are putting them on karts that already had GX engines on them, then you should be able to just swap the clones straight on. They are clones of the GX, so besides slightly less QC, they are the same |
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