SPrint shifter bodywork

dperlick · Joined: 22 Jul 2001 Posts: 30

quote:
Originally posted by Erik Frank:
Well, I'm glad we've finally reached closure on this topic....goodness gracious.
-erik

Yes indeed! I think we've all been given the definitive treatise on the topic! (BTW-you may cut a bigger hole through the air, but, even without a tailpiece, the airflow is much better managed. Drag is a function of area AND Cd, and you can make HUGE gains in Cd!)

Just to add my too little, too late, I think the bodywork looks much better. (cool guy factor counts, right?) And I don't know if it's necesarily laziness, but I have to say that it's not that big of a deal to switch noses... The time involved is literally similar to changing gears.
I even think of it as a cost save! I spent $200 on a nose/fairing for my new kart, as opposed to $400 that I wanted to spend on a new helmet to reduce buffeting! After all, you can only run so much of the race looking at your fuel tank!
I personally hated being out there with CIK bodywork with my pants flapping in the breeze...(I don't know if mine did, but I see lots of others with that). I even saw one guy's suit inflated like the Sta-Puft man!
I don't have the back-to-back data to say how much (or little) faster it is, but I know I felt a lot better about my engine at Road America when I debuted this kart's bodywork! But then again, this is that Midwest road racing only perspective, again. Leave it open, let us have our fun.

Don

[ August 03, 2001: Message edited by: Don Perlick ]

John Bosanek · Posted: Fri Aug 03, 2001 6:32 am Post subject: SPrint shifter bodywork

It was mentioned that full bodywork may encourage rough driving. For what it's worth I find that to be untrue. On the track, I have yet to have an enduro or a full bodywork sprinter get rough with me on the track (at least not yet). In my opinion, the level of aggression seems to be largely based on which class it is (of course I'm generalizing). I'm currently running Yamaha limited lite. When practice starts, I pray to live through it due to the fact that I'm sure to be bump drafted or almost run off the track by faster karts (here again generalizing, but 9 times out of ten it seems to be a 125 causing the excitment). Heck last time out I had a guy bump draft me and then cut in on me so hard that I had to lock up the brakes at 80mph just to avoid an "incident". If someone can explain why a kart going 40 or so mph faster than I am needs to pull that kind of stuff, please let me know. Again, I have yet to see full bodied karts pulling that stuff. BTW I'm not slamming 125's.....I hope to be driving one someday. Also, I too would have never made it to the track if I had to buy full bodywork!

John Ferreira · Posted: Fri Aug 03, 2001 6:52 am Post subject: SPrint shifter bodywork

Well, I think I have waited long enough to see/hear what most of the opinions are regarding the pro's and con's of CIK vs Full bodywork on 125's RR Sprinters. Charlie did a nice job in the original post of summarizing one side, and, many of you did a good job of summarizing the positive's of CIK only.

As some of you know, I am a gearbox RR, was a 125 RR and now a 250 RR, and I wrote the original proposal for the WKA 125 sprint class. (Some of you will not let me forget this!!!) And I have an e-mail folder with over 200 mail messages on this one subject alone. As a member of the WKA NRRC, this has been a tough one to figure out with such a strong division of opinion. However, let me suggest the following proposal; (Note -> WKA only proposal)

WKA Sprint 125:
Full nose cone allowed per current WKA 125 Sprint Rules. Side pods to be CIK style only. Radiator to be within 11 inches forward of the rear axle. A competitor wishing to run a CIK nose will receive a 20 pound weight break.

CIK 125 Sprint:
CIK bodywork only.

Classes are to be run at the same time and scored separately. Classes run both Saturday and Sunday

Now, you may ask, why would a competitor run a CIK nose in the WKA 125 Sprint class? Because that competitor may want to run a full nose at Charlotte, Daytona, Savanna, etc, tracks, and run a CIK nose at Putnam, NHIS, Mid-Ohio, Grattan, etc…. their choice.

So basically, after hearing good arguments for both positions - we are going for BOTH.

Note: All proposals from the NRRC are just that, "proposals", and are subject to the approval by the WKA Board of Trustees.
Your comments and suggestions are always welcome. And you can also see me at the track

On a 'personal' note, and this is MY opinion. When observing the 125 races, I have been either very pleased with the way you have been smooth, courteous, professional RR drivers, OR, very unhappy with the tactics and bumping and chopping that have been happening. It seems that on different days there are different attitudes…… Please be careful.

Thanks,
John Ferreira
WKA NRRC

Charlie Tackett · Posted: Fri Aug 03, 2001 7:14 am Post subject: SPrint shifter bodywork

Stay home at night, John!

As you can see from some of the responses, this quickly becomes a topic of emotion! I perosnally don't think either group is lazy, nor do I think either group knows how to tune better than the other. TO run well in either group requires effort adn skill. We generally make our decision, if open bodywork, to go with what we feel will make us the most competitive that day at that track. Couple of little advantages to teh CIK, IMHO.....it is easier to work on the kart and it is a lot easier to lift Ted's lead sled without the big nose on it!

Couplequestions comments. Will CIK only also include the driver fairing be a CIK-fairing?

At VIR when they ran the 'local' option CIK class along with the regular rules class, one of the first complaints I heard almost immediately following the race in impound were the complaints of one class interfering with the other. Similar to two years ago when the MSES ran 125 Sprint and 125 gearbox together. You are going to have two classes which depending on the track are going to be running essentially the same lap times, be ready for the complaints of them getting in each others way.

ANy reason as to why not one class with two weights...with/without bodywork....just like in some of the other classes where you got a 20lb break with no bodywork. Just consider the CIK as no body work.

I vote for a, say, hmmm, 50lb weight break for CIK only! (hehehehe)

Tim Blaney · Joined: 18 Jul 2001 Posts: 1127

John,

I am confused at to why you are creating yet another class for those who choose not to run body work? Or are you simply responding to your members, which is what I suspect. In that case, we have no one to blame for the prolifieration of classes but ourselves.

John Ferreira · Posted: Fri Aug 03, 2001 8:55 am Post subject: SPrint shifter bodywork

quote:
Originally posted by Tim Blaney:
John,

I am confused at to why you are creating yet another class for those who choose not to run body work? Or are you simply responding to your members, which is what I suspect. In that case, we have no one to blame for the prolifieration of classes but ourselves.

Yes,
we ARE responding to what our members want. We did surveys, we listened, we discussed.
From the survey results alone, we feel that BOTH classes will be well supported. I 'think' that is a good thing.
The change does NOT take away from practice or race time.
I 'think' that is a good thing.

I guess time will tell.
Now, we have also proposed 2 other items. First, no class will be 'removed' without having a 1 year warning. However, a class that has low participation, will be put on warning (year 1) and if low participation continues, then that class may be removed (year 2). (WKA National only)

About this "Blame" thing. - I guess if I paid attention to the survey, and read the members e-mail suggestions, and paid attention to the member's comments at the track, and took the members comments to heart at the meetings ,,, and the outcome was what 80% of the members wanted ... then I guess you can blame me for doing my job...

Stephen Buckley · Joined: 18 Jul 2001 Posts: 861

Whoever originally brought up the idea that full bodywork will encourage rough driving is absolutely clueless. For one thing, the bodywork is generally very expensive, usually having a custom paint job on it. Also, there is the matter of mutual respect among roadracers... that is, the speeds are too high for bonehead shenanigans. Harrrumpff!

dperlick · Joined: 22 Jul 2001 Posts: 30

Isn't it funny how there is always at least one topic discussing what's wrong with karting in the US (I think it's in the Tech Hit Squad forum at the moment) and fragmentation is always blamed as a contributor. So now we'll have two situp 125 gearbox road racing classes! Everybody wants a class for themselves... I actually liked the idea of a weight break for people without bodywork, but then I guess that alienates the heavier ("big boned!") individuals that don't want bodywork... After all, most American males (maybe 180 lbs?) are probably at the weight limit with CIK, so CIK already enjoys a weight break. Except for people like Ted Tackett! (And me) What we really need to do is to run people like Ted out of town on a rail, so the rest of us can enjoy racing the way we want to without having to add extra classes! I propose we name one of these classes the "Ted Tackett Memorial Shifter Kart Class"! (It will be a memorial because he will be strung up at the next Mid States race) That's the real solution! Get rid of Ted Tackett! Banned from WKA! Tossed out of the track at Mid States events! Charlie, you'd better make sure he rides that zippy new motorcycle of his to Putnam or else we'll catch up to him and run him over with our tow vehicles!
As they used to say in the Pace picante sauce commercials, "Get a rope."

Stephen Buckley · Joined: 18 Jul 2001 Posts: 861

Erik, Erik....

I wasn't referring to anyone here!!! Sorry! I wrote too quick, I guess. I was referring to that statement made years ago by some people who were generally resistant to any change... that is, they stated it as "fact", just 'cuz!

I don't want to get into the bodywork debate discussed in this post because I'm not qualified to have an opinion... other than the "fact" that when I had my semi-situp 125cc ZipKart Eagle with F/E bodywork (IKF 150 Open FKE II class), I was continually passed by those "slick-aired" laydown critters!

Anyway, Erik, sorry for the confusion.

S

Tim Blaney · Joined: 18 Jul 2001 Posts: 1127

"About this "Blame" thing. - I guess if I paid attention to the survey, and read the members e-mail suggestions, and paid attention to the member's comments at the track, and took the members comments to heart at the meetings ,,, and the outcome was what 80% of the members wanted ... then I guess you can blame me for doing my job... "

John,

Sorry if my comments came across as me blaming you for doing what the racers asked you to do. That was not where I was going.

What I was trying to say, and hopefully I will do a better job on my second try, is that one the one hand, racers complain about how many classes there are in the sport. I am not sure anyone thinks the current class structure makes a whole lot of sense.

Yet, when things happen, our (and by our, I mean the racers, not the sanctioning bodies) reaction is to request new or different classes. Instead of blaming the organizations for all the classes, we should look to ourselves. Afterall, the organizations are responding to our wishes.

When I started following karting a few years ago, I remember people talking about how great the SKUSA structure was. It had a three 125 classes. S1, S2, and S3. After a few years, the older guys complained about running with the young kids and the G1 class was born. At the same time, in response to complaints from the bigger guys, the G2 class was born. Now we expanded the classes by 66% and didn't expand the driver base by any where near that much.

So, next time someone complains about all the classes, we need to remember it's our fault, not the organizations.

Stephen Buckley · Joined: 18 Jul 2001 Posts: 861

Tim,

I think you are correct but in a partial sense. I think the comment by many "too many classes" people is referring to too many classes made up of one engine, ie. Yamaha Jr., Sr, Pipe, Can, Super, etc, etc. I think a simple Yamaha Jr. with a can and Yamaha Sr. with a pipe will do. It's not to say you can't use a Yamaha KT100 in ICA, or the IKF Masters class. I hope you get my point.

As for SKUSA, they are a "shifter motor only" organisation and can afford to run several classes of varying levels/weights.

S

Tim Blaney · Joined: 18 Jul 2001 Posts: 1127

Stephen,

At some point in time, none of those classes existed. They were all created at the request of the racers. Thus, my point that it is we the racers who must accept responsibility when we complain about too many classes, regardless of the motor package.

Marc Miller · Advertiser Joined: 18 Jul 2001 Posts: 1834

OK...sarcasm time.

Here is a proposal -

9 classes 125 cc sprint road race, each with a race on Saturday and sunday, scored seperately and run in different races.

1. Formula 125 Nekkid LIGHT - 345 weight, no bodywork or pods - just bare frame
2. Formula 125 Nekkid MEDIUM - 347 and 1/2 pounds
3. Formula 125 Nekkid Slightly Obese - 360 pounds
4. CIK 125 Pod Light
5. CIK 125 Pod Normal
6. CIK 125 Pod Heavier than normal
7. 125 Full Coverage Light - open bodywork, 380 pounds
8. 125 Full Coverage PRO - this of course would be 400 with ONLY licensed PRO level guys.
9. 125 Full Coverage All you Can EAT - 440 pounds

Of course.. we could add geezer divisions for each of these for 34-1/2 years and older... PLUS, there could be a novice in one or all of the classes.

This...conceivably should cure ALL foreseeable problems, and give the promoter added classes for more income, while providing me with a possible 5 race a day schedule.... 1 kart, 1 motor and a chance to run 9-10 races in ONE weekend... I may need to hire an extra mechanic!!! But extra trophies are worth it!

*grin* Hope everyone enjoys the humour.

Seriously-

Marc Miller

Erik Frank · Posted: Fri Aug 03, 2001 10:34 pm Post subject: SPrint shifter bodywork

quote:
Originally posted by Stephen Buckley:
Whoever originally brought up the idea that full bodywork will encourage rough driving is absolutely clueless. For one thing, the bodywork is generally very expensive, usually having a custom paint job on it. Also, there is the matter of mutual respect among roadracers... that is, the speeds are too high for bonehead shenanigans. Harrrumpff!

Stephen,

We all thank you for your opinion, albeit a strong one. I was the "clueless" one who made that statement you refer to. My statement (correct or incorrect)was countering Charlie's (edit) argument that CIK bodywork is a (possible) root cause of some rough driving situations that they've experienced.

In these subsequent dicussions and posts, its apparent that body work has little to do with rough driving. Rough driving is, more often than not, related to the individual(s) doing the driving, their habits, and the particular situation. Rough driving is always bad and frowned upon! My point was that body work rules probably won't fix rough driving in a class. Disciplinary actions and teaching proper racing etiquette will.

As far as being clueless, I just want to let you know that I won an IKF Region 4 F125 roadracing championship last year, and this year I have numerous wins, and podium finishes. I am a consistent front runner, and holder of several fast lap times. That is hardly clueless.

-erik

(message edited to protect the names of the innocent...erik)

[ August 05, 2001: Message edited by: Erik Frank ]

David Cole · Posted: Sat Aug 04, 2001 6:32 am Post subject: SPrint shifter bodywork

I apoligize for calling people lazy. I didn't mean to affend anyone. I just don't agree that it is that hard to crossover from sprint tracks to long tracks for a 125 shifter.

I do agree with Patrick on leaving the bodywork rules open. It is enduro racing. I would even run a plastic nose piece, not CIK, at a sprint track anyway. In my opinion, I feel safer with them.