SPrint shifter bodywork

[Charlie Tackett]

At the last couple of DMSS races, there have been parties involved in discussions regarding bodywork rules for sprint shifters. Had a discussion with a couple of folks about it this past weekend at Grattan.

The debate seems to be restricting it to CIK bodywork only, or allowing the standard types of sit-uo sprint bodywork found in all other roadracing sprint classes. I'm curious as to people's opinions and more importantly why.

I'll go first wiht my opinion, so you all will have something to shoot at!

From my observations, road racing bodywork as is allowed in all other sprint enduro classes offers increased safety, for several reasons. One, it encloses the area in front of the front wheels, limiting the likelihood of wheel to wheel contact.

Secondly, it allows for safer racing. With the CIK bodywork, single kart draft passing of a leading kart of comparable speed doesn't happen often. Typically, the overtaking kart pulls out to pass and hits that aero wall and stalls out. What this does is cut down significantly on the ability to draft pass down the straights, forcing more passing to be done on corner entry or in the corners, which is fine, but out of frustration of not being able to draft pass a sltly slower kart, drivers tend at times to make desperate moves.

The CIK bodywork to me acts like and resembles NASCAR restrictor plate racing. It results in the field being bunched up more. In qualifying a kart may have a 1-sec advantage over the field, but with CIK bodywork, come race time, that probably means nothing. Having to run in groups to be able to take advantage of any amount of drafting, does make for closer racing, but also increases the risk of accidents.

From my observations, many who like to run CIK bodywork also tend to think and drive like they are still on a sprint track...running less than half the speeds the are running out there on the long track. Bumping and rubbing at 40-50mph is one thing, doing it at 100+mph is a whole different story. These folks still think they are sprint racing, only on a bigger track. Perhaps one reason this class has the unfortunate reputation for also being one of the most dangerous and the source of the greatest # of red flags in some series.

ANother thing is the misnomer of CIK bodywork. Many seem to think this applies only to the nose and the side pods, but not the driver fairing. Under the guise of CIK bodywork, I have seen driver fairings run and allowed that would make good winter homes for a whole family of gray squirrels! They are almost as effective as a sit-up sprint nose! If you want CIK, then it should be full CIK, including the driver fairing!

SO therre are some thoughts to get this started! Opinions?

[Bill Kassy]

Wow, Charlie seems like old times - just a different forum.

I agree that on the big tracks where you are at full throttle in top gear for 30-50% of the time, that CIK bodywork has a tendency to bunch up the field and desparate times call for desparate measures. I concur 100% that an enduro style nose helps in a few ways:
(o) better aero; (o) less chance for wheel to wheel contact; (o) possibly better crash resistance; (o) good place to put all those sponsor decals, etc.

I also have seen the so-called CIK driver fairings that are huge, cover the top of the steering wheel, etc. If it is CIK, then make it CIK and make sure it has the little CIK/FMK mark on it.

Personally, I think an enduro nose with CIK side pods should be the rule for the enduro tracks, not to mention a floor pan that stays within the main frame rails. Oops, that's another discussion.

Bill K

[Roy Harris]

Charlie,

I started out as a sprinter and I now do both in my sit-up. CIK bodywork may not be the ideal set up for long course racing but if full body work would have been required to road race I would have never made it out to the track. Many of the people I sprint with ask what it takes to convert their karts to road race and if I had to tell them the needed to add full bodywork they would never come out to play.
I do think that if the rule book says CIK then the fairings should be CIK. Unfortunately the IKF tech book has more gray areas than a ( insert pun here ).
I don't think the body work make the drivers more aggressive but if it bunches them up it does provide more opportunities to display rough driving.
Keep the body work classes. I would like to run body work if I can get some extra money to buy some. I was told that the body work on a laydown was one of the biggest expenses of the kart.
My observations, No CIK = fewer sprint crossovers, CIK should mean CIK, Keep the bodywork classes.

Roy Harris

[Roy Harris]

I apologize for using my keyboard before thinking. I run a Yamaha, not a shifter.
Sorry

[Gary Kozuma1]

Hello Mr. Charlie,

So I'm not at all a roadracer, but I have raced at Willow Springs on both the street course and the big track. On the big track your wide open from the beginning of the back straight, all the way through the last 180 sweeper up the front straight through turn 1 (if your setup is good), up the chute between 1 and 2, until you have to downshift up the hill! Talk about a pack! Last time I was there with SCK it was great, with one exception. There was a guy doing exactly what you were saying. Grinding on everyone in every corner trying to "win". I saw at least 4 instances where wheel to wheel contact was initiated by the guy. We didn't know if we should be in front of him or behind him.

I think the reason for the CIK bodywork is to invite the sprinters to the roadraces. At the last 3 SCK's I've been to the biggest single class was the 125 situp.

I'm not sure about the nose piece. Do they make them so I can just remove the CIK nose and put on a RR nose? And will this solve the problem? I think wider sid pods would also help a lot to reduce rear wheel contact with stuff. Is there a "Situp full bodywork" class?

Gary K.

[Dale Fagg]

IMO, kart racing is OPEN wheel racing. Each and every competitor earns respect out on the racing surface, in the manor they participate. Kart racing is very dangerous on these large tracks, however allowing the use of reinforced bodies to cover the wheels is a poor way to provide safety. I’m with Roy, I race both sprint and sit-up, and if I had to convert to bodywork I would have to skip the enduro events. JMO

Roy, buy a shifter!

Dale

[Erik Frank]

quote:

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Originally posted by Charlie Tackett:
(snip)
From my observations, road racing bodywork as is allowed in all other sprint enduro classes offers increased safety, for several reasons. One, it encloses the area in front of the front wheels, limiting the likelihood of wheel to wheel contact.

---

True. The front wheels are now protected. But given the fact that the wheels are now covered, it might encourage some drivers to actually become more aggressive, given the sense of security of the enclosed front end.

quote:

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Secondly, it allows for safer racing. With the CIK bodywork, single kart draft passing of a leading kart of comparable speed doesn't happen often. Typically, the overtaking kart pulls out to pass and hits that aero wall and stalls out. What this does is cut down significantly on the ability to draft pass down the straights, forcing more passing to be done on corner entry or in the corners, which is fine, but out of frustration of not being able to draft pass a sltly slower kart, drivers tend at times to make desperate moves.

---

I disagree. In fact, I can counter with firsthand empirical evidence to the contrary. At Texas World Speedway a couple of weeks ago, I was involved in a race with several other very fast 125cc shifters all running CIK style bodywork. It was quite easy (and routine) to slingshot pass a kart directly in front of by as much as 5-10 mph. There was no "stalling" side by side. CIK karts are so "dirty" aerodynamically that the influence of the draft at speeds over 100 mph can be felt probably 50 yards behind a leading kart. When 3-4 karts are involved in the draft, the speed differential can be quite large. We were routinely doing this at speeds over 110 mph. Nobody got frustrated, and nobody wrecked. In fact the biggest problem we had was when we encountered lappers (on a 2.9 mile course!) who were running much slower. They could really disrupt the race for the lead because of the large speed differential betwen the leaders and the lap traffic.

Typically, guys who hit that "aero wall" don't have the right gearing, or aren't tuned well enough to take advantage of the draft. At Texas World Speedway, with a 3/4 mile long straight, you had better tune and gear for those conditions.

quote:

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The CIK bodywork to me acts like and resembles NASCAR restrictor plate racing. It results in the field being bunched up more. In qualifying a kart may have a 1-sec advantage over the field, but with CIK bodywork, come race time, that probably means nothing. Having to run in groups to be able to take advantage of any amount of drafting, does make for closer racing, but also increases the risk of accidents.

---

The thing about the CIK bodywork is that it is a SPEC bodywork. Obviously, at the speeds a 125cc sit up kart can achieve on a long track, aerodynamics is a huge factor. By allowing full noses you open things up for numerous possibilities:

1. Are you going to specify the shape of full noses? Otherwise, it is pretty easy to get very liberal with the rules interpretations concerning bodywork.

2. Full bodywork means less drag. Less drag means higher speed. Higher speeds in a kart are more dangerous. Most recent serious kart related accidents on road courses that I am aware of have not been related to multi-kart pileups or "driver frustration". They have been due to equipment failures at high speeds.

3. I bet that even a more aerodynamic kart running full bodywork can still be drafted just as well as a CIK equipped kart. While I don't have firsthand knowledge about this, I've seen very effective drafting and passing taking place in IKF Superstock races.

quote:

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From my observations, many who like to run CIK bodywork also tend to think and drive like they are still on a sprint track...running less than half the speeds the are running out there on the long track. Bumping and rubbing at 40-50mph is one thing, doing it at 100+mph is a whole different story. These folks still think they are sprint racing, only on a bigger track. Perhaps one reason this class has the unfortunate reputation for also being one of the most dangerous and the source of the greatest # of red flags in some series.

---

Are you implying that guys who run this setup are naturally more aggressive or dangerous than anybody else?

It's been my experience that the people who are too aggressive and get into the most trouble are the ones who didn't spend enough time at 45-50 mph on the sprint tracks. You get punted (or do the punting) long enough at slow speeds, you learn that it pays to be smooth. And as we all know, smooth is fast!

While I roadrace my CIK-equipped 125 shifter more than I sprint race, I kind of take exception to your comment. If you can back that statement up with a statistic, then fine. Otherwise, if the racers in your area running in that class are bumping and rubbing and generally being too aggressive, then this should be dealt with by the officials. Doesn't your organization have a black flag? It seems like you really just want to get rid of the notion of the sprint crossover classes and open it up for the dedicated, specialized road racing classes. Seems to me, that's what laydown enduro karts are for....

Usually, the aggressive drivers become known entities within an organization, and specific driving habits and methods can be observed and dealt with. Personally, I don't feel any more or less aggressive based on the bodywork. But I do want to win the race regardless.

quote:

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ANother thing is the misnomer of CIK bodywork. Many seem to think this applies only to the nose and the side pods, but not the driver fairing. Under the guise of CIK bodywork, I have seen driver fairings run and allowed that would make good winter homes for a whole family of gray squirrels! They are almost as effective as a sit-up sprint nose! If you want CIK, then it should be full CIK, including the driver fairing!

SO therre are some thoughts to get this started! Opinions?

---

Well, no comment on that last bit. IKF rulebook seems to be a bit vague about the steering fairing. This is something that I personally have to get clarified before the 2002 Grand Nationals.

Personally, if my only choice was to run full bodywork, then that's what I would run. But I'm a little skeptical about what that entails. By allowing or specifying a full nose, you greatly change the aerodynamics of the kart. Essentially (in my mind) you open things up for innovation. As an aerospace engineer with a background in composites, I'll happily play that game. Having said that, I haven't looked at a WKA rulebook (I presume those are your area's rules?) in a long time, so I'm not sure what the restrictions on bodywork are. However, CIK body work is simple, effective, accepted, and a whole lot cheaper than a full set of road racing 'glass. And the rest of the world uses uses it.

This bodywork issue is one reason I inquired about racing in other series (in another topic on this forum). You go a lot faster with that nose on the front.

My humble opinion, of course.

Thanks,
erik

[ July 30, 2001: Message edited by: Erik Frank ]

[Ray Knight]

Please don't tamper with what is working in the Northwest.CIK noses and pods provide for great racing on our tracks.PIR's IKF Nats. provided plenty of passing providing you know how to use the draft.As for the big driver fairings,on a fast(115 MPH)PIR straight you need the protection of the larger fairing to keep your head from being blasted from turbulence.If the body's get changed we would loose all of our crossover participation.

[Robert Sobota]

Please be realistic. To say you would lose crossover participation if aerodynamic noses were allowed is a bit extreme. An aero nose costs about 60 to 150 bucks, along with about an hour of bracket fab. And from what I've seen at DMSS races (i.e. Grattan) that's a lot of performance improvement for a little effort. With a shifterkart's biggest limitation seeming to be aerodynamics, why not improve within a SPECIFIC SET OF GUIDELINES?
Just my .02, less the rookie discount.

[ July 31, 2001: Message edited by: Robert Sobota ]

[Patrick Ashby]

I have run races in the Big South Series for 2 years and I have seen just about every type of shifter bodywork possible. In all of the cases I have seen, this bodywork does not help to much. Yes it does help a bit, but it wont give you a very significant amount. (in my cases) As far as this type of bodywork bunching up the frild and enabling passing on straights, that is not true. I have found in many instances that it will cut a bigger hole in the air, thus giving you a better run and making the pass with ease.

[Chuck McCue]

Ahh, the ole' CIK body vs "bathtub" body debate continues. My vote would be for CIK bodywork in the 125 sprint class, The glass full body work should be reserved for laydowns, IMO. As far as the south is concerned, most prefer the CIK body style, at least at the Big South and SRRS.

CM
Arsenal Pro Racing

[ August 01, 2001: Message edited by: Chuck McCue ]

[Charlie Tackett]

Ok folks, let's get one thing straight here, nobody is trying to *mandate* full bodywork. You are free to run CIK if you want. What some are trying to do is mandate CIK only, the other way around! Calm down, nobody ids shoving body work down your throats...its the other way around!!

SOme other comments: regarding statements if you want to run bodywork that's what the laydown classes are for, run them. Well using that same emtional logic, the statement that CIK and sprint karts are for sprint tracks, so if you want to run CIK and/or a sprint kart, then go run them on a sprint track where they belong and leave road racing to laydowns would be just as valid of a statement. Right??

Erik, that's not empirical data, that's anecdotal evidence....very big difference. YOu also mention 3-4 kart draft. My example was of two karts....and of comparitive speed. I would not call closing in on some one from 50+ft back and passing them at a speed 10mph greater being a comparison of comaparitive speed karts. ALso your give a good example of exactly what I refer to. The effect of the draft on CIK karts is substantial and the more karts the greater the effect. This is exactly what I was refering to. A body work kart is indeed also sensitve to the draft, but not near as much as the CIK karts. While a group of karts working together can run down a single kart if all have body work, it is more difficult than a group of CIK karts runnning down another CIK kart. The effect of the draft is much more noticable with the CIK and that is one reason they tend to bunch up more and run multi kart backs...hence the comparison to restrictor plate racing. The "dirty air" limits the ability of a single kart breaking away from a pack of *comparative* speed karts due to the enhanced effect of the draft and it also enables a pack of karts working together to more easily run down a single kart or even two karts running.

I would agree with Pat. Body work does not give you the tremendous significant advantage that some of you feel it does and top end speeds are not substantially greater.

We have run both ways for years and have done back to back testing with the same kart, same driver, same engine. Only on tracks which are what I would consider sustained high speed tracks is there a noticable difference. On tracks such as Grattan adn Mid-Ohio, both of which have 2500-3000ft+ straights, there was no significant difference in overall lap times. We have run these and most all the tracks in this part of the country both with CIK and with sprint enduro nose. We have won races on most all of them regardless of what bodywork, with the exception of RA. When we had a speedometer on teh kart top end difference between the two was about 3mph. And while running at a track such as Mid-Ohio, we were capable of running the full length of the straight against karts with nosepieces with our CIK set-up...we just had to hook up in the draft of one of them to be with them that last 1/3rd of the straight. otherwise we had to gain it back in the tight stuff. What has been your comparative experience/evaluations of the differences running teh differetn body styles?

I think some of this is a regional difference. Apparently in your areas you have a more significant # of crossovers. I believe in the WKA series, there are virtually no crossover racers in this class. In most of the events around here, the crossover numbers are only a small part of the entry #s, the majority are long track only. Of course we also have usually in the neighborhood of 15+ long track events in this region, so there are plenty of events to keep someone who only races long tracks occupied all year. Typically well over half the field has some enduro bodywork. Very few have full body work, the majority run an enduro sprint nose and CIK pods

Erik, accidents do not always have to be "serious" to be a cause for a Red flag and race stoppage. Don't even necessarily have to have any injury. Ask anyone what the average length of teh fall M-O races are before the red flag comes out!! Ask Tim DOll what class in the gold cup accounts for the highest # of red flags.

[Erik Frank]

quote:

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Originally posted by Charlie Tackett:

Erik, that's not empirical data, that's anecdotal evidence....very big difference

---

What I have is good hard numerical data. I have numerical mychron information from that race logged in my setup notebook. I have weather data. I have digital pictures and video of the karts (us) racing and passing on the straightaway. I even have a digital picture of my mychron from that race diplaying the maximum readings. It is most certertainly not just "acedotal evidence". It is factual, documented infomation.

***

But in any case, I didn't mean to sound too harsh or condescending towards running an enduro setup vs. a sprint setup. Down here 99% of every 125cc shifter kart runs the CIK setup. That's just the way it is. There is a 125cc Gearbox class, but attendance is very sparse. Resistance to change is probably based solely on the fact that it would be yet another thing that a racer would have to do to his/her kart in order to road race. We also have a very active SKUSA region, and a very active local sprint track in North texas, so there are a lot of sprinters.


The drafting/passing effects we are discussing were just as effective with only two karts. We experienced that during this race as well. As far as sprint vs. enduro noses on track, I have no comparison with different nose styles on my kart, since I have always run the CIK setup. I've had to make gains in the motor to keep up.

As far as the crossover issue, I'm surprised to hear that in WKA land, there aren't more sprint guys road racing.

Also, if you call it a "sprint shifter" class, why wouldn't that naturally entail using the CIK setup?

Wow! 15+ long track events in one season???? That's really cool.

For me, what this really means is that when I head north to race with you guys at Road America next year, I had better have my stuff together and find a good aero nose to bolt on the front of my kart! Got any reccomendations ?


thanks for the discussion,
erik

[David Tallant]

And my 2cents. I like CIK if for two big reasons. The first I can sprint or road race with out any changes. Second, it makes at least one rule easy to enforce, no CIK stamp, it is illegal. Every one with the same aero package.

[Charlie Tackett]

While most of that is indeed factual, it would be the My-Chron that may give empirical data. IN fact I think it would be very interesting to have something like a PI/Drack set-up and do comparisons with segment times, track maps, etc.

Like I said, we've run both ways and even at tracks with significantly long straights, not noticed any significant overall lap times on most of them. Depending on how it is mounted, the enduro nose will affect handling to some degree. My suspicion is that what little we gain on the long straights is made up for when running CIK by improved handling and subsequent corner speeds.

Yah we have a lot of RR events up here, and remember another thing, we cram all of them in from mi/late April to mid-October! We only got about a 6-month racing season, so it's not like they are spread out over the full year.

I am begining to think a significant influence may be regional with a fair amount of that due to the length of the racing season and the number of available events. If you have only say 6-8 RR events/yr, and those are spread out over the course of the year, then I would expect that crossovers would be more significant in that there would still be an awful lot of freetime thru the year to race sprints.

As for it being a sprint class, so is IKF superstock, right? WKA and MidWest independent series have all kinds of sprint classes...briggs, Yammi can/pipe, etc. They all allow essentially open body work. So exactly way is it that this attitude of it is a sprint class only applicable to 125s and not all sprint enduro classes???

As for "spec" bodywork, this is as about as open rule class as you can get! Motors are basically open class motors. So why spec just the body work? You want spec, then spec the motor, they are going to have a heck of a lot more significant effect than a nose! Besides if you don't stick with strict CIK including the fairing, then what is the point of it? (BTW, I'm an old motorcycle racer and life long rider...I'm fully aware of the effects of the wind at 100+mph...on the whole upper body and not just the head...you are not supported by a seat on a bike...laydown on the tank at 100+ and then sit-up for the turn and you discover the effect of wind speed and "body-braking" real fast!)

IF you are running in an area where crossovers are significant and more likely the rule, I can see some of your points. Hoever, if you are in areas where crossovers are a small to non-existant #, then I don't see the justifications. We don't go to a local sprint track once or twice a year and expect them to change their rules for us.

At RA, you will need a nose..most any will do.

Oh and also, we have won WKA Nationals, RA SuperNationals, hold the track record at Mid-Ohio, overall-Kart track record at Nasville....want me to go on? And it is not simply because we run a nose or not...we also do know how to tune and gear and set-up a chassis...running CIK does not mean you have to be a better tuner or that you can be a slouch when you run a nose.