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Chris Livengood
Joined: 24 Jul 2001
Posts: 2432
Location: United States, Pennsylvania, Da Burgh
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 Posted: Fri Mar 08, 2013 12:32 pm Post subject: |
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| Jim McMahon wrote: | | Chris Livengood wrote: | | The guys I've talked to who are good at this no longer talk about oversteer or understeer, they simply talk about lift duration and lift amplitude (using various terminologies). In my experience, these characteristics encompass all of the many handling ailments. |
Only thing I don't like about this terminology is that it puts too much emphasis on "lift" when really what you are looking for is "unloading". Lift is easier to determine though. |
Semantics, Jim.
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JIM SILVERHEELS
Joined: 22 Jul 2006
Posts: 590
Location: United States, Massachusetts, LUDLOW
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| Posted: Fri Mar 08, 2013 12:39 pm Post subject: CAMBER |
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Would everyone agree with Colin the Aussie in his video that positive camber will hold the inside rear wheel in the air for a longer duration because of front tire flex/leaning? thanks
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Randy Mckee
Joined: 23 Jul 2001
Posts: 746
Location: United States, California,
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| Posted: Fri Mar 08, 2013 12:48 pm Post subject: |
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Funny, I just watched that video and I'm pretty sure he contradicts himself at the end.
Here's the link if you want to give it a listen:
http://kracer.com.au/steering.html
It's the "effects of camber" vid.
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TJ Koyen
Joined: 03 Oct 2004
Posts: 1425
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| Posted: Fri Mar 08, 2013 2:46 pm Post subject: |
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I've always found negative camber to slow down the rate of lift, keeping the kart from hopping and allowing the lift to durate longer around the corner.
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Jimmy McNeil
Joined: 12 Apr 2006
Posts: 1467
Location: United States, California, visalia
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| Posted: Fri Mar 08, 2013 6:29 pm Post subject: |
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TJ, if my chassis is good, rate of lift is just rite, no corner push, my engine is geared and jetted properly but Leesman is still .2 faster, what should I do?  |
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TJ Koyen
Joined: 03 Oct 2004
Posts: 1425
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| Posted: Fri Mar 08, 2013 8:22 pm Post subject: |
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| Jimmy McNeil wrote: |
TJ, if my chassis is good, rate of lift is just rite, no corner push, my engine is geared and jetted properly but Leesman is still .2 faster, what should I do? |
Wreck his ass. 
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Ray Lovestead
Joined: 21 Dec 2011
Posts: 156
Location: United States, Colorado, Louisville
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| Posted: Fri Mar 08, 2013 9:57 pm Post subject: |
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Guys, The Aussie says something that confuses me to no end.
"Having more positive camber keeps weight on the outside front corner (takes it from the inside rear)... If you are trying to convince the inside rear tire to stay in the air longer, using more positive camber can help the kart to keep the weight on the outside front tire at the exit of corner."
This seems to contradict. Positive camber = faster rate of lift. I get that. But that also would mean it would try and set that inside rear tire down quickly. When then does he say that more tuck (due to more positive camber) would keep that inside rear tire in the air?
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Jim McMahon
Joined: 07 Apr 2007
Posts: 2688
Location: United States, St. Paul,
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| Posted: Fri Mar 08, 2013 10:04 pm Post subject: |
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| Jimmy McNeil wrote: |
TJ, if my chassis is good, rate of lift is just rite, no corner push, my engine is geared and jetted properly but Leesman is still .2 faster, what should I do? |
Buy your old CRG back.
Or use BFCH. Big Freakin Chrome Horn.
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JIM SILVERHEELS
Joined: 22 Jul 2006
Posts: 590
Location: United States, Massachusetts, LUDLOW
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| Posted: Sat Mar 09, 2013 8:36 am Post subject: OH BOY |
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The Wrench To Win Video from the Canadian guy says negative camber will make the kart trike more and the inside wheel longer in the air.[/i]
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Jimmy McNeil
Joined: 12 Apr 2006
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Location: United States, California, visalia
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| Posted: Sat Mar 09, 2013 11:16 am Post subject: |
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lol
Believe me, its crossed my mind a time or two |
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Tim Koyen
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| Posted: Sat Mar 09, 2013 2:22 pm Post subject: |
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If it was easy, everyone would be fast.
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Peter Zambos
Joined: 22 Jun 2006
Posts: 540
Location: United States, Illinois, near Chicago
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| Posted: Sun Mar 10, 2013 8:22 pm Post subject: |
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| Ray Lovestead wrote: | Guys, The Aussie says something that confuses me to no end.
"Having more positive camber keeps weight on the outside front corner (takes it from the inside rear)... If you are trying to convince the inside rear tire to stay in the air longer, using more positive camber can help the kart to keep the weight on the outside front tire at the exit of corner."
This seems to contradict. Positive camber = faster rate of lift. I get that. But that also would mean it would try and set that inside rear tire down quickly. When then does he say that more tuck (due to more positive camber) would keep that inside rear tire in the air? |
You're confusing faster with longer. Granted, I haven't watches Col's video for a while now, but I don't remember him stating that positive camber equates a faster rate of lift. If you imagine the geometry of your inside front tire, negative camber will actually push down harder in the early point of the turn resulting in earlier and greater lift. If you subscribe the the church of faster lift equals shorter lift, then there's part of the answer.
The second part of the answer is what happens from apex out. This is where you'll get different answers, and I haven't quite figured out why that is. One could be the chassis. Over the last five seasons or so, I've been using a 32mm frame, and, for better or worse at times, not a very reactive one in terms of flex. When I take the camber more positive than a certain value, the rear definitely tends to float at the exit on most corners, which then needs to be corrected.
In comparison, (and please correct me if I'm wrong, TJ) TJ's been using either the Merlin LM30, which is a 30mm main rail and 32mm transverse chassis, or the Exprit, which is all 30mm in recent years. Because of their increased reactivity in relation to my lead sled, their metaphorical wound up spring will try to do it's best to dump down that inside tire, but, simultaneously, the positive camber tries to keep it up. These conflicting forces probably results in the hopping that TJ is feeling. When he puts the camber a little more over to the negative direction, the kart is more decisive, so to speak: the positive camber pushes down on entry and allows the inside rear to float just long enough and then lets it dump down and stay down.
I'm not saying that I'm absolutely sure of this explanation, but it's the best that I've come up with. |
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Ray Lovestead
Joined: 21 Dec 2011
Posts: 156
Location: United States, Colorado, Louisville
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| Posted: Mon Mar 11, 2013 11:46 am Post subject: |
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I realize that generalize with any of this stuff can lead to erroneous assumptions.
But, generally, is it correct to assume that more positive camber means you lift (weight jack) quicker? And that faster rate-of-lift means you'll set down the tire faster?
If so, how is the aussie saying that more positive camber helps you keep that rear inside tire in the air longer?
(BTW, those words I wrote down are direct quotes from him)
Ray
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Randy Mckee
Joined: 23 Jul 2001
Posts: 746
Location: United States, California,
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| Posted: Mon Mar 11, 2013 11:52 am Post subject: |
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| Ray Lovestead wrote: | I realize that generalize with any of this stuff can lead to erroneous assumptions.
But, generally, is it correct to assume that more positive camber means you lift (weight jack) quicker? And that faster rate-of-lift means you'll set down the tire faster?
If so, how is the aussie saying that more positive camber helps you keep that rear inside tire in the air longer?
(BTW, those words I wrote down are direct quotes from him)
Ray |
As I said above, he contradicts himself in the video. So good catch!
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Tim Koyen
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Joined: 26 Nov 2002
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| Posted: Mon Mar 11, 2013 1:53 pm Post subject: |
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I tend to think of camber as a tool to control duration of lift, although obviously it has an impact on rate as well. Increased positive camber, IMHO, keeps the inside tire in the air longer.
Another factor that is often overlooked is the need to keep the outside rear tire planted. Lifting too quickly and dropping the kart can lead to binding on exit, but it can also lead to an exit loose condition as the outside rear can slide out. There are always trade-offs, so it's just making the most of them.
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Last edited by Tim Koyen on Mon Mar 11, 2013 5:58 pm, edited 1 time in total |
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