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joseph hollinger
Joined: 12 Sep 2002
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Location: United States, California, san francisco
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 Posted: Fri Mar 08, 2013 9:58 am Post subject: F1 Technology, does anyone really care? |
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http://en.espnf1.com/ferrari/motorsport/story/102473.html
Okay, that's just an example, but does anyone think that kind of thing is even remotely interesting? Or any of the other endless arcane stuff that they do to make an F1 car microseconds faster than the others?
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Greg Wright
Joined: 25 Oct 2001
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Location: United States, Indiana, Clermont
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| Posted: Fri Mar 08, 2013 10:14 am Post subject: |
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I'm with you Joseph, just more voodoo that only exists in the F1 world.
No interest there for me.
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Justin Martin
Joined: 27 Mar 2012
Posts: 331
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| Posted: Fri Mar 08, 2013 10:28 am Post subject: |
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Well, I am not with you. If you think there is too much progression and gimmicky technology look at any sport. Baseball, football, even NASCAR. Every team is always looking for ways to "push" the rules.... Shoot, even late model dirt track cars change every ccouple years due to innovation.
I personally love it. I am studying to be an aeronautical engineer. Using blown exhaust makes all the sense in the world. They have also been known to redirect air to the underside edge of a wing causing a stall, or the leading edge of a wing increasing downforce.
Not to mention, eventually "some" of this technology does trickle down. Did you know that a Toyota Prius is more aerodynamic (less drag) than a corvette? |
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joseph hollinger
Joined: 12 Sep 2002
Posts: 9534
Location: United States, California, san francisco
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| Posted: Fri Mar 08, 2013 10:42 am Post subject: |
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| Justin Martin wrote: | | Did you know that a Toyota Prius is more aerodynamic (less drag) than a corvette? |
And both of them are more aerodynamic than an F1 car. So how is that trickle down?
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Justin Martin
Joined: 27 Mar 2012
Posts: 331
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| Posted: Fri Mar 08, 2013 11:17 am Post subject: |
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Direct injection, or ultra high pressure injection.
Ceramic brakes
Launch control
Paddle shift, or pneumatic shift (both of which HAVE been used in modern vehicles, however now of days Pneumatic shifting is kept to cars such as F1000 etc... so still in use)
KERS, is not being adapted in flywheel recovery on many vehicles
Live Tire pressure monitoring
The list goes on, and on.... Technologies dating way back.
Seatbelts? Seat belts developed in aircraft, and the first automotive application were open wheel race cars... Now its a law in damn near every state. |
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Justin Martin
Joined: 27 Mar 2012
Posts: 331
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| Posted: Fri Mar 08, 2013 11:21 am Post subject: |
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BTW, neither of them are less draggy than an F1 car.
Firstly the **Reynolds numbers** are WAY different... Or in other words, the speed and size of the vehicle is entirely different. An F1 car driving at 60-80 mph (the average highway speed for these two vehicles) would infact be similar, possibly cleaner than these cars. If you take into account DRS, then it is an immense difference.
** In fluid mechanics, the Reynolds number is a dimensionless number that gives a measure of the ratio of inertial forces to viscous forces...
So please by all means, lets start a Fluid dynamics, aerodynamics, or engineering argument! I love em, and I must say I am pretty darn good at them  |
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joseph hollinger
Joined: 12 Sep 2002
Posts: 9534
Location: United States, California, san francisco
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| Posted: Fri Mar 08, 2013 11:35 am Post subject: |
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| Justin Martin wrote: | | Direct injection, or ultra high pressure injection |
The Germans used direct injection on their U-boats as far back as World War I. I think if you do some research you'll discover that most of the other things you've mentioned also did not originate in F1 or even in race cars.
Not that any of that matters, I suppose. If you're into that kind of thing, then its probably fascinating. I just think that the vast majority of people, even car people find that sort of minutia completely boring.
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joseph hollinger
Joined: 12 Sep 2002
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Location: United States, California, san francisco
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| Posted: Fri Mar 08, 2013 11:38 am Post subject: |
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| Justin Martin wrote: | An F1 car driving at 60-80 mph (the average highway speed for these two vehicles) would infact be similar, possibly cleaner than these cars. If you take into account DRS, then it is an immense difference.
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Even if true (which I doubt), you'll probably notice that a Prius does not look much like an F1 car. So, once again not much trickle down there.
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joseph hollinger
Joined: 12 Sep 2002
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Location: United States, California, san francisco
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| Posted: Fri Mar 08, 2013 11:42 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | The limitations on ground effects, limited size of the wings (requiring use at high angles of attack to create sufficient downforce), and vortices created by open wheels lead to a high aerodynamic drag coefficient (about 1 according to Minardi's technical director Gabriele Tredozi;[15] compare with the average modern saloon car, which has a Cd value between 0.25 and 0.35), so that, despite the enormous power output of the engines, the top speed of these cars is less than that of World War II vintage Mercedes-Benz and Auto Union Silver Arrows racers. |
Wikipedia. For whatever that is worth.
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Justin Martin
Joined: 27 Mar 2012
Posts: 331
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| Posted: Fri Mar 08, 2013 11:54 am Post subject: |
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Well, I could build a car in CAD and run analysis in my Fluid Dynamics software.
However once more, it comes down to what the vehicle is designed to do, and the Re's that play part.
For instance, the airfoil used on an RC model can't just "scale" up to work on a Boeing 747...
Same goes with an F1 car designed to race between 80-200. The speed the car is designed to operate is hugely different than that of a Prius designed to operate in the 20-70mph range.
However, I do believe I have come to a realization that no matter the conversation, you just like to argue... I am ashamed at myself that it took this long to realize it.
| Quote: | | Prius does not look much like an F1 car. So, once again not much trickle down there. |
This is a prime example of the childish arguing you seem to enjoy... What a statement! I guess because a modern day Boeing 787, or McDonnell Douglas F-15, doesnt look much like the Wright brother's Wright flyer, then the technology surely didn't trickle down... |
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Adrian Baran
Joined: 01 Jan 2013
Posts: 53
Location: United States, New York, Staten Island
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| Posted: Fri Mar 08, 2013 11:58 am Post subject: |
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I love it, but that's just the engineering student in me getting all excited. FSAE is my "mini" F1 so these developments always make me wonder what else can we do.
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Chris Livengood
Joined: 24 Jul 2001
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Location: United States, Pennsylvania, Da Burgh
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| Posted: Fri Mar 08, 2013 12:01 pm Post subject: |
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The sport is really a function of excess. Too much of it revolves around meaningless rules. The only reason it continues to exist is because it has proven to be a good business model in the entertainment sector.
Otherwise it is about as pointless as there is. The advances in technology are applications of aerospace developed technologies, not necessarily advances in their own right.
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Chuck Skowron
Joined: 19 Jul 2001
Posts: 1156
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| Posted: Fri Mar 08, 2013 12:06 pm Post subject: Re: F1 Technology, does anyone really care? |
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| joseph hollinger wrote: | http://en.espnf1.com/ferrari/motorsport/story/102473.html
Okay, that's just an example, but does anyone think that kind of thing is even remotely interesting? Or any of the other endless arcane stuff that they do to make an F1 car microseconds faster than the others? |
No, not really. And that's just one of the problems I have with Formula 1 these days. F1 afficianados love to beat their chests and go on about the high-tech nature of the sport and the teams' constant drive for improvement. But their high-tech quests are for such niggling, mundane things like you said.
That may be enough to get some geeks frothing at the mouth with excitement. But an inconspicuous aero-tweak for a 0.001 second improvement doesn't really titillate me like it may with others. The article is a little more interesting than usual, because they are using the exhaust for more diffuser downforce, instead of the typical winglet here, barge board there. But it's still for a negligible amount; a driver could sneeze mid-turn and negate whatever advantage the engineers found in the wind tunnel or CFD program.
I gripe about this because it wasn't too long ago that F1 technology really WAS spectacular. Today fans will have a 10-page debate on some forum about the subtle shaping of each car's "flip-down" nose. If you took an F1 guy from 1967 and showed them a grand prix car from 1973, they'd probably ask "What's that?", they wouldn't be able to recognize it. Car design was evolving so rapidly and at such a large scale back then, that it truly was a marvel. It was before my time, but I could imagine people being legitimately excited when it came to new car introductions because, back then, you really didn't know what to expect when the cars came out.
And it usually wasn't the product of an army of technicians working 24/7 on their computers. It was often the work of one mad-genius (or just mad) designer and maybe a couple of aides, and his crazy ideas. Sometimes it worked (McLaren M23, Ferrari 312T, Williams FW07, Brabham BT49), sometimes it didn't (March 721, Lotus 76, Lotus 80, Brabham BT55). There were cars that were really radical but never reached their full potential (the Tyrrell P34 6-wheeler), radical cars that were banned after one race (Brabham BT46b "Fan Car"), radical cars that were banned before even racing (the twin chassis Lotus 88 ). And then there were cars that rewrote the book and completely changed the game (Lotus 79, McLaren MP4). And the thing was, nobody had any idea if it would be the next big thing, or a complete failure, until it got out on track.
And that's only chassis and body design. I didn't even touch upon engine technology, like the "The Turbo Era". But I've gone long enough with this.
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Last edited by Chuck Skowron on Fri Mar 08, 2013 4:55 pm, edited 2 times in total |
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Justin Martin
Joined: 27 Mar 2012
Posts: 331
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| Posted: Fri Mar 08, 2013 12:07 pm Post subject: |
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Yes an no.
The advances in fluid dynamics when talking about F1 have very little to do with Technology developed in the aerospace world. We have ZERO concern with designing a foil to be used as a downforce or wing. Aircraft are engineered first to meet a goal, and secondly for efficiency. We don't have limitations like span, and that is why you see high aspect ratio wings on most aircraft. For instance, look at an airliner, a long slender, swept wing. Not a big straight stubby rectangular wing. With a proper series of airfoil and wing planform a much more efficient wing can be achieved.
Now I am not saying that these technologies were ORIGINATED in F1, or racing in general. However Formula one, as well as race cars in general are usually the FIRST to apply such technology in a car, this technology if proven successful often trickles down. |
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TJ Koyen
Joined: 03 Oct 2004
Posts: 1456
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| Posted: Fri Mar 08, 2013 12:19 pm Post subject: |
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I think it's cool.
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