Adjusting Front Track Width (hubs/spindles/etc.) Need Advice

[Todd Kageals]

Guys,

I have an older Haase kart and a newer GP10. I have NO setup information so I am basically trying to copy the GP10 setup over to the Haase. I'm just trying to get the starting track widths close so that I have a point from which to adjust. The king pins are pretty much the same distance apart on both karts but I can't get the front of the Haase anywhere near as wide as the GP10. It looks like I need longer hubs but all the ones that are 100mm (might need slightly longer) are labeled as rear hubs. Maybe I need the inner hub or whatever you call it but I don't know where I could find it for the older kart. See the video below for a better understanding of my problem. It's also possible I just don't know how to adjust the Haase setup correctly. There are some spacers in there but I can't see how you are supposed to use them.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BAg0il2GEWI



As always.....thanks for the help.

Todd

[Randy Mckee]

Hey Todd,

Don't worry about trying to equate 2 different karts. Especially if one is older. They were built differently and will require different setups to achieve the same feel on track. You can usually use just about any kart setup baseline as a guide, but it always comes down to testing and seeing what you prefer. Anyway, I would just start in the middle settings for everything and go run laps. Make a single adjustment, run more laps. Make another adjust and keep doing over and over.

Some basics:

Rear width: 54.75
Front: middle of adjustment (call it MOD for short)
Front Height: MOD
Rear Height: MOD if possible. Otherwise, probably low for the GP10 and high for the Haase.
Caster: MOD
Camber: MOD
Toe: 3mm total OUT

Here's a good setup doc to get you started:
http://www.southwestkarters.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/04/crg-setup-guide.pdf


P.S. Not sure which front hub setup you have on the haase. If it has spacers, you can usually just remove the big nut on the end of the spindle, remove the hub and then move spacers from inside to outside or visa-versa.
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Randy
#123 TonyKart - S4 Stock Honda

[Todd Kageals]

Randy,

Thanks for that link. It has a lot of good information for a newbie like me! I realize that each kart will have to be tweaked differently but I can't even get close to the setup recommended in that guide. I'm about 2 inches short of their "starting point" for front track width even when I am at my maximum. I have been looking at those spacers and they MUST be there for some reason as there are three of them on the outside of the spindle making the front as narrow as it will go. If I move them to the inside of the of spindle, that will get me close to the extra two inches I need. The problem is that that would move the brake disk and ultimately the brake caliper which is not adjustable. I assume I will have to make some spacers for the caliper??? With the current setup, 44 inches is as wide as you can get. That guide and my GP10 are both at 46 as a starting point.

[Randy Mckee]

You're probably right that it's at full narrow in the front. Usually the front is split between a brake hub and a wheel hub, so you can adjust the wheel hub in/out via spacers without moving the brake hub. In newer models you can see the split and it has spacers between (see front hub picture below). You can remove the wheel hub by removing the spindle nut at the end.



_________________
Randy
#123 TonyKart - S4 Stock Honda

[Randy Mckee]

Oh, and don't necessarily shoot for 46 wide on an older kart. Not sure what year you have, but older karts almost always had narrower front-ends compared to very recent karts.
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Randy
#123 TonyKart - S4 Stock Honda

[Todd Kageals]

Fixed the video.

[Matt Dixon]

Todd
Yes you can use longer hubs but will stiffen up front end and add grip which shifters always seem to need more rear grip so that might not help.

The spacers are excactly that and yes you place the 5mm or 10mm either on the inside or outside for addition track width. There must be an easy brake adjustment or longer bolts with bushings...
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Matt Dixon
94y Energy Corse/Swedetech

[Todd Kageals]

Well....I moved the spacers, bought longer bolt and am having my machinist (dad) make me the appropriate bushings. Longer hubs would be much easier. I'm a little concerned that the calipers will not be mounted firmly enough since they will be spaced so far from the bracket. If it does not seem "stiff" enough, I will get longer hubs and go back to the original spacing on the caliper.

Thanks for the advice.

Todd

[Randy Mckee]

I wouldn't try that route because I've never seen a front-end setup where you move the brake rotor to accommodate a wider setting. Try to get a-hold of a haase dealer and ask what's up. Worst case, buy the longer hubs.

Have you driven this kart in it's current setup? You might be trying to adjust something that doesn't need to be adjusted.

BTW: those front hubs don't look stock. Most "axle" front setups have front hubs without a register which allows you to slide the hub over the axle to get very skinny. If you want to go wide, you add a plastic register to help center the wheel on the hub (see photo in link below):

http://www.fastech-racing.com/righetti-ridolfi-hub-40mm.html
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Randy
#123 TonyKart - S4 Stock Honda

[Chris Rock]

Todd,
Looking at your video it appears there is a lot of room left to continue sliding the wheel hub outboard, well beyond the adjustment marks. As long as the clamp area of the hub is still on the brake hub and covering part of the key way you should be fine. Same deal as the rear hub sticking out beyond the end of the axle. Just take a measurement from the rotor edge to the wheel hub so you can match up both sides.
The spacers are what are used to set the spacing on non-front brake hubs, all be it more of them. My guess is that Haase used the same spindle for both applications that year and the three spacers are needed to take up the spindle length not covered by the front brake assembly. The track width adjustment in that setup is simply moving the wheel hub in and out. The rotor/caliper should all stay in place.

[Todd Kageals]

Chris,

Yeah....I've been questioning moving the brake disc out there too. I've ordered longer hubs and am just going to go that route. Easier to adjust and no "long spacer" brake issues.

Thanks for the advice.

Todd

[Alan Sheidler]

The question I have has not yet been asked:

Are you sure that the brake/bearing hubs are original to the kart? I don't recall seeing any setup which required anywhere near that kind of spacing under the spindle nut. Perhaps the spindles themselves were replaced, and the spindle shafts are significantly longer than original?

If all components are as original, why do you think it is necessary to widen the front track to match up with the other chassis?

If you have not run the kart yet, you are making a change based solely on that easily-measurable difference between the two, but it might be the WRONG thing to do for the Haase. The adjustment range for every manufacturer's individual chassis versions are set based on engineering and testing for what is needed to get it to work under most track conditions. Between versions from even the same maker, there can be substantial differences in torsional rigidity which require different levels of twisting torque through the front spindles.

If you go as wide on the Haase as the GP, you may wind up with something that is pretty much undriveable. Increasing the front width that much beyond the original design might result in a really darty, whippy, spin-prone ride.

Going the wheel hub route will at least allow you to quickly go back to the short ones if the kart is a scary handful with the longer ones.

[Todd Kageals]