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Brian Degulis
Joined: 13 Aug 2012
Posts: 417
Location: United States, Florida,
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 Posted: Sun Jan 20, 2013 6:43 am Post subject: |
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It's always regional but thru my eyes you guys are missing the point. The guy with no interest in structured racing isn't afraid to race because he's not fast or good enough. In fact a stop watch will tell you many are dam good and would be real competition. They don't want to avoid rules or tech in fact they're karts are in top shape and they conduct themselves like in a sportsman like manner. They don't race because they don't much care about trophies or points or recognition. 5 days a week these guys have to get up a certain time and be a certain place. They live structured lives and they don't want that in they're recreational lives. They don't want be at a certain track at a certain time and date they want to wake up look at the weather and decide to karting or do something else. You know what there's nothing wrong with that and no reason to change it. They contribute as much some times more than the dedicated racer. The kart shop doesn't care what your doing with the parts and equiptment you buy they just need you to buy it. The track shouldn't care why your using the track only that your using it. Everyone who purchases a kart and uses it contributes to the sport. Maybe less emphasis on structured racing and more on the non racer would help get more into it and supporting it.
Brian |
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Michael Boone
Joined: 31 Jan 2007
Posts: 1189
Location: France, Not USA state, Nantes
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| Posted: Sun Jan 20, 2013 6:56 am Post subject: |
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THANK YOU BRIAN!!! ++++++1
You have hit the proverbial nail on the head!!! 
Here in France it is exactly that 5 to 1 guys have the latest karts and motors but don't race just a hobby they love!!!
MB
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Cory Ross
Joined: 19 Nov 2012
Posts: 142
Location: United States, Colorado, El Jebel
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| Posted: Sun Jan 20, 2013 9:49 am Post subject: |
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| Those are the guys something like the idea I have could let them race. I mentioned this group of guys already in earlier posts. Some of them do care about lap times and how fast they are. They do not want to go through the trouble of organized racing for the specific reasons you stated. Give them the option of putting in a timed run on that day they wake up and decide to go to the track and some of them will take that option. We will not know how many until we give them the chance to begin with. This is not trying to change them, it is giving them something more they can get out of the track day. This could help expand the hobby side of the karting. For some the hobby part of karting is appealing but the expense is a little to much. This could give them that little bit extra, without the strict structure of traditional racing. Being able to have something equivalent of a club race they can do when ever they decide they want a day at the track might be that little bit needed to justify the expense of getting into the sport. |
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Jeff Metter
Joined: 18 Oct 2004
Posts: 731
Location: South Africa, Tennessee, Nashville
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| Posted: Sun Jan 20, 2013 10:03 am Post subject: |
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Brian +1 .... Well said !!
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Anderson /GasGas
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" We never really grow up " !!
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KURT RODGERS
Joined: 01 Dec 2001
Posts: 74
Location: United States, Illinois,
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| Posted: Sun Jan 20, 2013 10:41 am Post subject: |
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after reading Brian's post, I'll throw in +1
I have heard numerous times from people that they don't care if they run up front or not. They want to challenge themselves to the task, if they finish up front all the better.
Brian's post describes my racing experience to the "t". I have tried the local points chase only to find out the first Saturday I had to work took me out of the number one spot! After that I just ran every race as if it was my own personal championship race.
I never had the desire to chase regional or national points for the very reasons stated. I would rather go to a local race or a street race or visit another track when I want to. |
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Cory Ross
Joined: 19 Nov 2012
Posts: 142
Location: United States, Colorado, El Jebel
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| Posted: Sun Jan 20, 2013 2:18 pm Post subject: |
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| KURT RODGERS wrote: | after reading Brian's post, I'll throw in +1
I have heard numerous times from people that they don't care if they run up front or not. They want to challenge themselves to the task, if they finish up front all the better.
Brian's post describes my racing experience to the "t". I have tried the local points chase only to find out the first Saturday I had to work took me out of the number one spot! After that I just ran every race as if it was my own personal championship race.
I never had the desire to chase regional or national points for the very reasons stated. I would rather go to a local race or a street race or visit another track when I want to. |
So the idea I suggested is it something you would do? If not why not? |
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KURT RODGERS
Joined: 01 Dec 2001
Posts: 74
Location: United States, Illinois,
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| Posted: Sun Jan 20, 2013 3:12 pm Post subject: |
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every idea will attract a group of customers.
If I understand the concept in a big picture way, basically it is a form of SCCA Autocross format. You against the clock .
to me, that would not be as satisfying as running against other people who run in a similar competition level. The attraction for me is building and tuning chassis and motor and then test it on track with others. The thrill of the hunt, watching the guy in front of you, trying to out maneuver them while keeping the guy behind you from doing the same. That's why I go to the track. If I ran alone on the track for best time, I rather stay at home and play a video game. |
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Brian Degulis
Joined: 13 Aug 2012
Posts: 417
Location: United States, Florida,
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| Posted: Sun Jan 20, 2013 5:17 pm Post subject: |
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| Cory Ross wrote: | | Those are the guys something like the idea I have could let them race. I mentioned this group of guys already in earlier posts. Some of them do care about lap times and how fast they are. They do not want to go through the trouble of organized racing for the specific reasons you stated. Give them the option of putting in a timed run on that day they wake up and decide to go to the track and some of them will take that option. We will not know how many until we give them the chance to begin with. This is not trying to change them, it is giving them something more they can get out of the track day. This could help expand the hobby side of the karting. For some the hobby part of karting is appealing but the expense is a little to much. This could give them that little bit extra, without the strict structure of traditional racing. Being able to have something equivalent of a club race they can do when ever they decide they want a day at the track might be that little bit needed to justify the expense of getting into the sport. |
It might and it's certainly easy enough to do but many do it now without the help of the track just a Mychron and a beacon. Most don't care about what others are doing or about beating them. They're honing they're own skills trying to beat they're own times.
My sons and I were at the track yestaurday practicing. My 12 Y/o was clearly being out driven by another kid with an equal kart. When he came in I told him to stop trying to pass him stop racing. Instead stay right behind him and figure out what he's doing diffrently than you are. That's how you win today.
I enjoy it all. An empty track a full track racing or practicing. Maybe when I get more time under my belt I'll have a favorite but right now it's all good in it's own way.
Brian |
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Bob Ogden
Joined: 22 Jul 2002
Posts: 3446
Location: United States, California, Grass Valley
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| Posted: Sun Jan 20, 2013 9:57 pm Post subject: |
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| John Matthews wrote: |
Look at SCCA, Solo II is popular (mostly) with people who only have one car and can't afford to wreck it because they need it for driving to work. Solo I (time trials) is pretty much non-existent. Club racing is popular because in addition to driving and set-up prowess you can use strategy to win races. When you push the guy in front of you lap after lap and he finally makes the mistake that lets you by, for me.... That's racing!!!!
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John,
I believe you were at one time around SFR SCCA.
Were you there when Solo I (not II) had some of the largest entry numbers in the region?
Before my favorite RE came aboard in late '80s and screwed it up to the point they couldn't get enough entries to pay for the track. Another story, though.
Why was that? For Regional/National racers it was cheap test/tune days, for club racers a chance to hone their skills, for non-racers time to get on track and get a chance to learn from the R/N guys who weren't under so much pressure they couldn't take time to talk. Think about it...you're a beginner, only a Solo I license and you get an opportunity to have 4 or 5 laps playing lead/follow with Chuck Billington or Frank Leary.
Bonus for everyone was that there was a qualified and licensed SCCA timing crew posting times.
Personally, I think Cory has a good idea, but I've been on this board long enough to know that if he gets 1K replies, 999 will be negative because there are many who want to grow the sport by doing exactly what's been driving people away for at least 10 years I personally know of. |
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Cory Ross
Joined: 19 Nov 2012
Posts: 142
Location: United States, Colorado, El Jebel
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| Posted: Sun Jan 20, 2013 10:22 pm Post subject: |
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| Bob Ogden wrote: | | Personally, I think Cory has a good idea, but I've been on this board long enough to know that if he gets 1K replies, 999 will be negative because there are many who want to grow the sport by doing exactly what's been driving people away for at least 10 years I personally know of. |
Thanks Bob. I am well aware of this fact you pointed out since it happens in all forms of racing. Saw this in the sport of mountain biking the whole time I was involved in it. Everyone wants to increase entry numbers but they do not want to try doing something different from what they already do. As the saying goes, The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over expecting different results. |
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John Matthews
Joined: 04 Dec 2004
Posts: 1994
Location: United States, Michigan, Williamsburg
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| Posted: Mon Jan 21, 2013 8:15 am Post subject: |
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| Bob Ogden wrote: | | John Matthews wrote: |
Look at SCCA, Solo II is popular (mostly) with people who only have one car and can't afford to wreck it because they need it for driving to work. Solo I (time trials) is pretty much non-existent. Club racing is popular because in addition to driving and set-up prowess you can use strategy to win races. When you push the guy in front of you lap after lap and he finally makes the mistake that lets you by, for me.... That's racing!!!!
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John,
I believe you were at one time around SFR SCCA.
Were you there when Solo I (not II) had some of the largest entry numbers in the region?
Before my favorite RE came aboard in late '80s and screwed it up to the point they couldn't get enough entries to pay for the track. Another story, though.
Why was that? For Regional/National racers it was cheap test/tune days, for club racers a chance to hone their skills, for non-racers time to get on track and get a chance to learn from the R/N guys who weren't under so much pressure they couldn't take time to talk. Think about it...you're a beginner, only a Solo I license and you get an opportunity to have 4 or 5 laps playing lead/follow with Chuck Billington or Frank Leary.
Bonus for everyone was that there was a qualified and licensed SCCA timing crew posting times.
Personally, I think Cory has a good idea, but I've been on this board long enough to know that if he gets 1K replies, 999 will be negative because there are many who want to grow the sport by doing exactly what's been driving people away for at least 10 years I personally know of. |
Nope, I didn't start playing with SFR until 1995 so I didn't get to enjoy the heyday of Solo I. I was in the process of building a Solo II/trackday car when I got offered the $1000 '78 Honda Civic fully prepped for ITC I used to get my license. About that time I was working with Serena Industries who built the first "in car" timing system the "Hot Lap". Since then almost everyone has some kind of data acquisition system they use to improve their driving or set-up. The scenario you've laid out with more experienced drivers helping novices is absolutely the best way for most folks to get up to speed. Most dedicated racers will do this because they want you to enter the race though 
I'm not sure what people consider to be "negative" about my comments but in my world when someone points out a potential flaw with a plan I have, I take them seriously. On this forum we discuss all kinds of ideas. Each has it's merits and flaws but the nature of internet forums is people will pick your ideas apart, it can be hard to take but it's the very thing that makes this medium so powerful. Maybe Cory has the best idea anyone has ever had in karting but just saying it's good won't do anything, somebody has to put it out there and see what the results are.
Years ago when I suggested low power 4 cycle classes could improve kart counts I caught a bunch of grief too. Now it's the fastest growing class at many tracks because it's accessible and probably won't break your ribs or your wallet. Just because I pointed out some flaws I saw with how the "clone" thing was developed doesn't mean I'm not happy people are out there doing it.
I will stand by these statements though that I think are relevant.
1. If there's no pre-tech or driver qualification requirement you can have a very dangerous situation, especially with high powered equipment.
2. If there's no rulebook you really don't have a race.
3. People racing each other, or the clock, on a hot track during practice can lead to dangerous conditions.
4. If you don't have post-tech, weigh in, or defined classes you don't have a race.
5. Just making more ways for people to do what they're already doing won't add to the pie, we've seen this already with the proliferation of classes diluting competitive fields.
I'm not saying Cory's suggestion won't work, on the contrary it is (or something similar is) working at many indoor and rental tracks. I just think it's not something that can be applied at a whole lot of tracks around the country where there aren't already enough karters to keep the gates open 7 days a week. If you want to hear about another innovative way to race ask Benn Herr about the "Australian Pursuit" races he ran with Southwest Karters.
Cheers,
_________________
John Matthews
Heartbeat Power, LLC. |
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Bob Ogden
Joined: 22 Jul 2002
Posts: 3446
Location: United States, California, Grass Valley
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| Posted: Mon Jan 21, 2013 8:35 am Post subject: |
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John,
You make a good point. A driver did have to attend Driver School and obtain a Solo I license before being allowed on a big track. Just didn't have to complete the second on-track weekend with the racing.
Try suggesting that to karting gurus. |
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Cory Ross
Joined: 19 Nov 2012
Posts: 142
Location: United States, Colorado, El Jebel
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| Posted: Mon Jan 21, 2013 12:42 pm Post subject: |
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| John Matthews wrote: | I will stand by these statements though that I think are relevant.
1. If there's no pre-tech or driver qualification requirement you can have a very dangerous situation, especially with high powered equipment.
Driver qualification would not be any different then what a track already does for club races. Some tracks for club racing the only qualification you need is a kart and a pulse.
2. If there's no rulebook you really don't have a race.
Tracks can easily set up rules that work for their specific location. Rentals do not need much since the rental kart is more or less a spec kart
3. People racing each other, or the clock, on a hot track during practice can lead to dangerous conditions.
For the people in rental karts it would be no different then what they already do. For kart owners just have a set time every hour or so when the track is open for hot laps. Limit the hot laps races to under 10 laps. You are not guaranteed to be the only guy on the track trying to put down hot laps, but everyone out there is racing the clock at that time. Stagger the starts and explain to people by the time some one catches them according to the clock they have already been passed so let them by so you both loose the least amount of time. Anyone that has raced RC cars would know this as IFMAR qualifying. Multiple cars on the track all racing the clock, since your clock does not start until you cross the timing line for the first time. For the people there to practice, by the time they get to the pit refuel grab a drink of water and are ready to go back out the hot laps would be done.
4. If you don't have post-tech, weigh in, or defined classes you don't have a race.
For the rental classes post tech is not needed. Post tech for others will not be as much of an issue until driver skill reaches a point to take advantage of the advantage of more power or a lighter setup. Then the track can work with the club members to setup rules and let the racers police themselves. Let the group of older gentleman have a 50+ DD2 class with there rules and have them keep an eye on each other. This is also the reason to keep the entry very low and limit prizes for the non rental classes. I can welcome the challenge of seeing how close or if I can beat the guy that is 20lbs lighter then me. It is only going to make me a better driver. For a couple bucks for a run that is more then affordable to me for this. One of my best practice days so far was trying to race my friend, me in my Rotax Senior and he was in a shifter kart we were not wheel to wheel but trying to maintain the gap or reduce it was a ton of fun. I could out corner him but on the straights he would pull away or catch me depending who was in front. You would still want to seperate classes by the basic karts though, TAG, Shifter, DD2, 4-stroke, etc. Depending on the computer software you could have every persons hot lap info and let the racers see the leader board and sort it on endless categories, overall out of all hot laps session, kart, specific rental kart number, age, sex, racers first name, hometown, it would only be limited by the info you get from the racers. The racer gets to look at the category he feels is important and wants to progress in.
5. Just making more ways for people to do what they're already doing won't add to the pie, we've seen this already with the proliferation of classes diluting competitive fields.
This would be more for the renters and new karters to get an introduction to putting in a race run with out the stress and strict timeline of a raceday. Plus it could encourage renters to return to or visit the track more frequently.
I'm not saying Cory's suggestion won't work, on the contrary it is (or something similar is) working at many indoor and rental tracks. I just think it's not something that can be applied at a whole lot of tracks around the country where there aren't already enough karters to keep the gates open 7 days a week. If you want to hear about another innovative way to race ask Benn Herr about the "Australian Pursuit" races he ran with Southwest Karters.
Cheers, |
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Cory Ross
Joined: 19 Nov 2012
Posts: 142
Location: United States, Colorado, El Jebel
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| Posted: Mon Jan 21, 2013 12:47 pm Post subject: |
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| Bob Ogden wrote: | | Try suggesting that to karting gurus. |
I think you would have better luck convincing the farmer to let the wolf sleep in the barn with the pigs. |
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John Matthews
Joined: 04 Dec 2004
Posts: 1994
Location: United States, Michigan, Williamsburg
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| Posted: Mon Jan 21, 2013 2:32 pm Post subject: |
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| Cory Ross wrote: | | John Matthews wrote: | I will stand by these statements though that I think are relevant.
1. If there's no pre-tech or driver qualification requirement you can have a very dangerous situation, especially with high powered equipment.
Driver qualification would not be any different then what a track already does for club races. Some tracks for club racing the only qualification you need is a kart and a pulse.
2. If there's no rulebook you really don't have a race.
Tracks can easily set up rules that work for their specific location. Rentals do not need much since the rental kart is more or less a spec kart
3. People racing each other, or the clock, on a hot track during practice can lead to dangerous conditions.
For the people in rental karts it would be no different then what they already do. For kart owners just have a set time every hour or so when the track is open for hot laps. Limit the hot laps races to under 10 laps. You are not guaranteed to be the only guy on the track trying to put down hot laps, but everyone out there is racing the clock at that time. Stagger the starts and explain to people by the time some one catches them according to the clock they have already been passed so let them by so you both loose the least amount of time. Anyone that has raced RC cars would know this as IFMAR qualifying. Multiple cars on the track all racing the clock, since your clock does not start until you cross the timing line for the first time. For the people there to practice, by the time they get to the pit refuel grab a drink of water and are ready to go back out the hot laps would be done.
4. If you don't have post-tech, weigh in, or defined classes you don't have a race.
For the rental classes post tech is not needed. Post tech for others will not be as much of an issue until driver skill reaches a point to take advantage of the advantage of more power or a lighter setup. Then the track can work with the club members to setup rules and let the racers police themselves. Let the group of older gentleman have a 50+ DD2 class with there rules and have them keep an eye on each other. This is also the reason to keep the entry very low and limit prizes for the non rental classes. I can welcome the challenge of seeing how close or if I can beat the guy that is 20lbs lighter then me. It is only going to make me a better driver. For a couple bucks for a run that is more then affordable to me for this. One of my best practice days so far was trying to race my friend, me in my Rotax Senior and he was in a shifter kart we were not wheel to wheel but trying to maintain the gap or reduce it was a ton of fun. I could out corner him but on the straights he would pull away or catch me depending who was in front. You would still want to seperate classes by the basic karts though, TAG, Shifter, DD2, 4-stroke, etc. Depending on the computer software you could have every persons hot lap info and let the racers see the leader board and sort it on endless categories, overall out of all hot laps session, kart, specific rental kart number, age, sex, racers first name, hometown, it would only be limited by the info you get from the racers. The racer gets to look at the category he feels is important and wants to progress in.
5. Just making more ways for people to do what they're already doing won't add to the pie, we've seen this already with the proliferation of classes diluting competitive fields.
This would be more for the renters and new karters to get an introduction to putting in a race run with out the stress and strict timeline of a raceday. Plus it could encourage renters to return to or visit the track more frequently.
I'm not saying Cory's suggestion won't work, on the contrary it is (or something similar is) working at many indoor and rental tracks. I just think it's not something that can be applied at a whole lot of tracks around the country where there aren't already enough karters to keep the gates open 7 days a week. If you want to hear about another innovative way to race ask Benn Herr about the "Australian Pursuit" races he ran with Southwest Karters.
Cheers, |
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Hi Cory,
Thanks for addressing my points. What you propose certainly could be done by an enterprising track owner with an appropriate facility and adequate staff. Unfortunately that's not the situation at most of the tracks I've been to, at many places the additional overhead would would bankrupt the operation in short order.
Typically the best way to ensure success of any venture is to repeat what has worked in the recent past. In this case it's having low cost engines on older chassis. It might not be the right solution for every new driver but it is what's making kart counts grow at many tracks now.
Cheers,
_________________
John Matthews
Heartbeat Power, LLC. |
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