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Brian McHattie
Joined: 28 Jan 2002
Posts: 386
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 Posted: Thu Jan 17, 2013 3:58 pm Post subject: |
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| David Womack wrote: | | Mike Burrell wrote: | I still think Yamaha Pipe is the perfect Masters class: not to slow, not to fast, 1 engine, stable rules, good on medium or hard tire, and not to expensive...
Multi-engine classes have never worked over the long run (10+ years). It's just been a fact of karting. Another fact is "Masters" age karters make up about 35% of the karting market, usually pay retail or close to it, and are usually totally ignored by karting industry, media, sanctioning bodies, etc. |
All good points. Interesting that a third of the racing population gets ignored by the sactioning bodies. Would a less violent motor package bring more of them out? Not to open another can of worms but is there a place for a 30 to 35 or so age group class? Yes the last thing I want to see is another class, but a 30 yr can maul a field of 50 somethings or 40 somethings too. |
I completely disagree, billy Clevelin is a prime example of a 50 something kickin ass in a race. Runs up front at the majority of events. Same goes for Bonilla, how old is he? Falcone is early 40's, there are many that aren't 30somethings that are extremely competitive. And less violent?!? Come on, are we racing or is this powder puff races?
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TJ Koyen
Joined: 03 Oct 2004
Posts: 1425
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| Posted: Thu Jan 17, 2013 6:40 pm Post subject: |
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They complain when you put the smaller header on to make the karts "less violent" because it's too slow then. Then they complain when you don't offer a class like Yamaha because it's slower and won't be as violent... When the Yamaha class is offered at a national series, no one runs it and it's dropped. They complain when there are too many engines and no parity in TaG. Then they complain when a series only offers a 1-make TaG class because they can't run it because they don't own that engine.
So THAT'S how we ended up with 20 national classes!
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mark coats
Joined: 07 Oct 2002
Posts: 500
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| Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2013 7:31 am Post subject: Well Said TJ |
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TJ,
That is very well said.
Mark
P.S. All of the guys that want Yamaha Masters - 90% of the people are from the Mid-West area. How come only 3-6 show up at the Route 66 Events? Our Awards & Year End Rewards are better than the current National Awards and you don't have to drive as far. |
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Jason Ewers
Joined: 11 Nov 2001
Posts: 135
Location: United States, Indiana, indianapolis
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| Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2013 7:52 am Post subject: Re: Well Said TJ |
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[quote="mark coats"]TJ,
That is very well said.
Mark
P.S. All of the guys that want Yamaha Masters - 90% of the people are from the Mid-West area. How come only 3-6 show up at the Route 66 Events? Our Awards & Year End Rewards are better than the current National Awards and you don't have to drive as far.[/quote/]
Last year was an odd year for me personally and the issue you have with a lot of masters guys is the family that we all have. I feel like the masters age group we only get a select few races to go travel to. I for one am committing myself to do more traveling this year. I personally purchased leopards to come run masters with your series but would much rather run my yamahas. All I ask is just offer the class. If you don't get the pre entries in a week before the race, don't run the class. All I want is for it to be offered. Thanks for listening to all the other racers and making the correct changes so far. I really do apreciate what you guys are doing. |
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Gary Osterholt
Site Admin
Joined: 18 Jul 2001
Posts: 2769
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| Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2013 8:32 am Post subject: Re: Well Said TJ |
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| Jason Ewers wrote: | | All I ask is just offer the class. If you don't get the pre entries in a week before the race, don't run the class. All I want is for it to be offered. Thanks for listening to all the other racers and making the correct changes so far. I really do apreciate what you guys are doing. |
Jason,
You can drop a class a week before, you want to see people complaining?
Gary
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Jason Ewers
Joined: 11 Nov 2001
Posts: 135
Location: United States, Indiana, indianapolis
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| Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2013 9:09 am Post subject: Re: Well Said TJ |
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| Gary Osterholt wrote: | | Jason Ewers wrote: | | All I ask is just offer the class. If you don't get the pre entries in a week before the race, don't run the class. All I want is for it to be offered. Thanks for listening to all the other racers and making the correct changes so far. I really do apreciate what you guys are doing. |
Jason,
You can drop a class a week before, you want to see people complaining?
Gary |
Solid point! But skusa did it with g1 before and it worked. I may be beating a dead horse but Its still worth a try. Like I said I have my leopards and am preparing to run the masters class. May feel froggy and run Yamaha as well we will see. |
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Mike Burrell
Joined: 22 Mar 2003
Posts: 720
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| Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2013 9:21 am Post subject: Re: Well Said TJ |
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| mark coats wrote: | TJ,
That is very well said.
Mark
P.S. All of the guys that want Yamaha Masters - 90% of the people are from the Mid-West area. How come only 3-6 show up at the Route 66 Events? Our Awards & Year End Rewards are better than the current National Awards and you don't have to drive as far. |
I didn't know Yamaha Masters was offered in Route 66 till I read this post...
That being said, most Masters guys don't travel well, especially those who don't have kids running.
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Nick Feczko
Joined: 06 Feb 2008
Posts: 55
Location: United States, Illinois,
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| Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2013 10:25 am Post subject: Re: Well Said TJ |
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| Mike Burrell wrote: | | That being said, most Masters guys don't travel well, especially those who don't have kids running. |
Put up or shut up.  |
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Cory Ross
Joined: 19 Nov 2012
Posts: 142
Location: United States, Colorado, El Jebel
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| Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2013 10:32 am Post subject: Re: Well Said TJ |
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| Gary Osterholt wrote: | You can drop a class a week before, you want to see people complaining?
Gary |
Just put a small disclaimer, Must have X amount of participants signed up by XX date or this class will be dropped. Might actually help people that sign up to bug friends to also sign up. |
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Rob Kozakowski
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 212
Location: Canada, Alberta, Edmonton
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| Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2013 1:50 pm Post subject: |
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| Brian McHattie wrote: | | David Womack wrote: |
Interesting that a third of the racing population gets ignored by the sactioning bodies. Would a less violent motor package bring more of them out? Not to open another can of worms but is there a place for a 30 to 35 or so age group class? Yes the last thing I want to see is another class, but a 30 yr can maul a field of 50 somethings or 40 somethings too. |
I completely disagree, billy Clevelin is a prime example of a 50 something kickin ass in a race. Runs up front at the majority of events. Same goes for Bonilla, how old is he? Falcone is early 40's, there are many that aren't 30somethings that are extremely competitive. And less violent?!? Come on, are we racing or is this powder puff races? |
Absolutely bang-on.
And what about the under-30's who are slow? Should there be new classes for them too?
Personally, I'm of the opinion that Masters classes are for club racing, and one-off events provided the entries can justify it. I'm a "Masters" racer now, and I just don't get why it would be needed / wanted beyond those levels. You want to run a "National" series, pick a class that fits your engine and do it - or stay home. So what if you might not have a class you can win in? Let's face it, if you're over 30 years old and racing karts, you're doing it primarily for fun - a win at that age isn't getting you noticed by Ferrari, Red Bull or McLaren.
National racing is supposed to be about the best and those that want to test themselves against the best, regardless if you have a realistic chance to win or not.
The Supernationals is the best example of how a Masters class can work in one-off event. There's probably a handful of guys in the class who have a realistic shot of winning (and would also be competitive without running Masters). That leaves the vast majority who are there for fun, knowing they have no chance against the top guys. And they don't complain about it!
Should Michael Schumacher have run Masters at the Supernationals a few years back? 40+ year olds can be just as fast in karts as the kids. Piccini can still kick ass against anyone in the world at 48 years old. |
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Rob Howden
Site Admin
Joined: 18 Jul 2001
Posts: 2145
Location: Canada, Ontario, Mississauga, Ontario, Canada
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| Posted: Sat Jan 19, 2013 9:26 am Post subject: |
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| Rob Kozakowski wrote: | Personally, I'm of the opinion that Masters classes are for club racing, and one-off events provided the entries can justify it. I'm a "Masters" racer now, and I just don't get why it would be needed / wanted beyond those levels. You want to run a "National" series, pick a class that fits your engine and do it - or stay home. So what if you might not have a class you can win in? Let's face it, if you're over 30 years old and racing karts, you're doing it primarily for fun - a win at that age isn't getting you noticed by Ferrari, Red Bull or McLaren.
National racing is supposed to be about the best and those that want to test themselves against the best, regardless if you have a realistic chance to win or not.
The Supernationals is the best example of how a Masters class can work in one-off event. There's probably a handful of guys in the class who have a realistic shot of winning (and would also be competitive without running Masters). That leaves the vast majority who are there for fun, knowing they have no chance against the top guys. And they don't complain about it!
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I definitely disagree with this, Rob, and let me tell you why. I've been covering national level events for almost 20 years, and I honestly think that the Masters guys enjoy that level of event (and competition) more than anyone else. For many of the Masters racers, it's a case of finally being able to afford to go racing at that level and in a series that is an professional as it gets in karting. Just because you're 40+ doesn't mean you don't want to be part of a national series like the SKUSA Pro Tour. The TaG Masters class there is packed with incredible talent, as if it wasn't for the Tour, these guys wouldn't get the chance to race with such a competitive field nor would they enjoy the magnitude of the events. They get treated like stars in a program that puts the spotlight on the Senior classes, and not just the Juniors.
To be honestly, I think we'll see continued growth in the Masters categories if we give these drivers the chance to race in marquee series and events.
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Andy Seesemann
Expert
Joined: 16 Jul 2001
Posts: 3289
Location: United States, California, Fullerton
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| Posted: Sat Jan 19, 2013 11:21 am Post subject: |
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Rob,
Which was the best pre-final of the weekend at the recent Challenge of the Americas race in Tucson?
A
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Andy Seesemann
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Rob Howden
Site Admin
Joined: 18 Jul 2001
Posts: 2145
Location: Canada, Ontario, Mississauga, Ontario, Canada
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Mike Burrell
Joined: 22 Mar 2003
Posts: 720
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| Posted: Sat Jan 19, 2013 5:03 pm Post subject: Re: Well Said TJ |
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| Nick Feczko wrote: | | Mike Burrell wrote: | | That being said, most Masters guys don't travel well, especially those who don't have kids running. |
Put up or shut up. |
I did travel for years & still do when I want to, which is becoming more & more rare... 
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Brian Robson
Joined: 24 Jul 2001
Posts: 145
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| Posted: Mon Jan 21, 2013 10:21 am Post subject: |
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The original question was asking if people would support a leopard only masters.
Not a bad Idea, but we do have single engine make classes for masters. Rotax Masters, DD2 masters, and S-4. TaG at any level and at any senior class (no juniors) is just like the long lived 100cc controlled stock days (for those of you who were around) Some engines have an advantage at some tracks and a deficit sometimes at others. Its up to you as the consumer, and you or your mechanic to make the right choices at the kart shop or the track. I have made good and bad calls on engine choices in TaG. It's just how it is.
If Iame and its Importers wanted to start a single engine formula series, im sure it can see support. Unfortunately for any entities looking to do this, Rotax has an advantage (head start) at this point.
Masters is a great class locally and Globally. To say its for Local or one-offs only is a comment I disagree with. Racing SKUSA Pro-Moto, Challenge of the Americas, etc. DOES put you up against the best. You DO see how you stack up against the best. IMO racing Cleavlin, Mchattie, Bonilla, Harwin, Crow, Chuck G, Jim Jr. etc.... is Racing against the best regardless if you have a chance to win or not. What you DO get out of it is great clean racing (most of the time) along with some great friendships off track. The current class of Masters over the past few years is very deep in talent and accomplishments. The DD2 Masters class in Tucson is a prime example.
Thanks for my reading my coffee-fueled rant.
BR
Did I really just post something? |
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