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Greg Wright
Joined: 25 Oct 2001
Posts: 2498
Location: United States, Indiana, Clermont
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 Posted: Sat Jan 05, 2013 8:18 am Post subject: Pushing Part Deux |
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OK Everyone, Since an earlier thread about Daytona pictures had veered into a discussion about pushing and then deleted, here we go again.
The earlier discussion about pushing, bump drafting, slam drafting is one that should be talked about from time to time.
I will paraphrase my earlier post from the deleted thread;
Pushing has been around for decades, I'm guilty as charged. It's nothing new and certainly is a cause for some concern. We used to call it zero clearance drafting.
As I mentioned pushing has been around forever but rarely caused significant problems. Somewhere around the mid to late 90s things seem to have changed, perhaps a new generation of drivers or ??
I've pushed with the best of them and it used to be that the only way you knew you were being pushed was a slight nudge (very slight) and your tachometer would start going up.
It seems that in later years it became "Slam drafting", ram the leading cars bumper and shoot him forward then draft back up to them.
We used to use a lot of finesse having learned to push without bodywork, It seems that finesse has become a lost art.
Certainly a topic worth discussing.
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Greg Wright
Rapid Racing Inc.
NKN Columnist & Host "Karting News Live"
I AM INDY!!
"When in doubt, gas it. It won't help but it ends the suspense." |
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Dan Davis
Joined: 21 Jul 2002
Posts: 2194
Location: United States, Kansas, Wichita
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| Posted: Sat Jan 05, 2013 10:09 am Post subject: |
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I agree with you 100% Greg. I wasn't racing karts when there wasn't bodywork but rest assured, pushing as you describe isn't lost yet. I know that the group I race with in 125 shifter class generally employs this this technique with no detrimental outcome....... Except that the leaders get run down and passed. Keep on mind the practice is considered illegal and penalties are issued from time to time. Im not saying that bad things cant happen even when done in this way because we are all human and make mistakes from time to time. Unfortunately, any contact at high speed can end in disaster as with the story brought up in the thread yesterday involving Mike Davis at Daytona in 2002. There have been others before and after that tragedy took place and I certainly hope there are none in the future. I expect as stated by Greg, that it will not entirely stop as long as there is racing but we all need to be very careful as I'm sure that we all agree, serious injury or death of one ore more of our friends is not an acceptable price to pay. We all know that bad things can happen even without contact at high speed in a kart and we all accept that risk when tightening the chin strap but we must remember unintended consequences that accompany our actions.
Will I push another kart or be pushed by another kart in the future? Most likely. Does it need to be done? Absolutely not. Although there are efficient ways of using the draft to gain an advantage but they are far more difficult to master and require more teamwork when compared to one driver pushing another for greater effect. These techniques typically requires longer straits to accomplish as well.
Intentional slam drafting is in my opinion unacceptable for safety and unnecessary equipment damage reasons and anyone I see or feel employing that technique will get an earful from me.
Just think and be careful!
As a side note, since I have started racing superkarts I have never seen or experienced any intentional contact with regards to pushing. Take from that what you will. |
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Ray Chiappe
Joined: 12 Apr 2003
Posts: 802
Location: United States, Nevada, Henderson
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| Posted: Sun Jan 06, 2013 12:50 pm Post subject: |
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| Only takes one dummy that does not have the skill to do it correctly to get someone hurt or worse. In the recent years that I have road raced on the left coast it is not allowed. So when I went to Heartland Part in Oct. I was not ready for it. Nearly got punted! At 90mph. As stated before I was not happy about it. For sure a 2 or 3 or 4 car draft is faster than no one to draft. So jmo but there is no need to bump. |
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Martin Secrest
Joined: 23 Jul 2001
Posts: 1671
Location: United States, Virginia, Arlington
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| Posted: Mon Jan 07, 2013 6:47 am Post subject: |
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Benefit-risk analysis to me says it's not even close to worth it.
Have you ever noticed that most of the time, the people doing it are hopelessly out of the race?
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Greg Wright
Joined: 25 Oct 2001
Posts: 2498
Location: United States, Indiana, Clermont
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| Posted: Mon Jan 07, 2013 7:25 am Post subject: |
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| Martin Secrest wrote: |
Have you ever noticed that most of the time, the people doing it are hopelessly out of the race? |
No I haven't, In fact I've seen just the opposite with the lead pack turning into a push-fest.
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Greg Wright
Rapid Racing Inc.
NKN Columnist & Host "Karting News Live"
I AM INDY!!
"When in doubt, gas it. It won't help but it ends the suspense." |
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Martin Secrest
Joined: 23 Jul 2001
Posts: 1671
Location: United States, Virginia, Arlington
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| Posted: Mon Jan 07, 2013 8:14 am Post subject: |
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| A lead kart that gets slammed at 90 mph might gain what, 25 yards on his position? There are 3520 yards in a 2-mile lap. |
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Greg Lindahl
Joined: 13 Jan 2011
Posts: 264
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| Posted: Mon Jan 07, 2013 9:25 am Post subject: |
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Pushing = "Team Sport" and is not fair to the non-team racer. The outcome of a race is dramatically different with teams vs. non-team racers.
I also concur that it is dangerous and FUN. |
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Ken Schilling
Joined: 01 Dec 2005
Posts: 1340
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| Posted: Mon Jan 07, 2013 10:37 am Post subject: |
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I've been sprint racing for 10+ yrs and road raced twice at Buttonwillow with NCK (one was the 2010 Grand Nationals). It was made very clear during the drivers meetings that pushing was NOT acceptable and would be treated with a zero tolerance policy. It was also mentioned that you couldn't even tap the back of your helmet to ask for a push. I followed the rules and never once touched another kart. I had a great time and finished mid-pack. It was clear however that pushing was going on and that drivers just weren't getting caught.
The Hegar's have team drafting down to a science as they "leap frog" each other, and to the best of my knowledge without pushing.
IMO, and I know that I'm not a regular road racer so my comments may not carry a lot of weight but...> RR has much higher sustained speeds and things can go deadly wrong very quickly, especially with concrete walls lurking...
Why is this so hard? If you are being pushed, wave off the other driver and notify the stewards.
Perhaps using GoPro's should be mandated and viewed like CKI does when there's an issue.
I'm sure everyone would be very interested in the Hegar's input on this subject as they are very successful and highly respected road racers.
I'm following this very closely as I'll move to road racing when my sprint racing "career" is over. If pushing isn't controlled, monitored and punished you won't see me road racing...
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Ken Schilling
#21x / S4 / ProKart Challenge (PKC)
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Good luck is where preparation and opportunity meet!!!
The opinions I express are mine alone and do not reflect those of any organization of which I am a member.
Last edited by Ken Schilling on Mon Jan 07, 2013 10:50 am, edited 1 time in total |
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Ken Schilling
Joined: 01 Dec 2005
Posts: 1340
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| Posted: Mon Jan 07, 2013 10:47 am Post subject: |
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| Martin Secrest wrote: | | A lead kart that gets slammed at 90 mph might gain what, 25 yards on his position? There are 3520 yards in a 2-mile lap. |
Slam drafting is the most dangerous as it's the least controlled.
Bump drafting is when the trailing kart gently (preferably VERY gently) hooks up with the leading kart. This is done by either laying off the throttle or gently using the brake to match the speed of the leading kart. Have you noticed that you need only ~1/2 to 3/4 throttle when you are closely behind (not touching) the leading kart?
I think what is being discussed here is the continuous bump drafting/pushing when two karts are hooked up for a length of time as it creates a much better aerodynamic profile as well as increases their speed dramatically. Basically you've created one larger kart with two engines.
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Ken Schilling
#21x / S4 / ProKart Challenge (PKC)
SKUSA Data Administrator
Good luck is where preparation and opportunity meet!!!
The opinions I express are mine alone and do not reflect those of any organization of which I am a member. |
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Dan Davis
Joined: 21 Jul 2002
Posts: 2194
Location: United States, Kansas, Wichita
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| Posted: Mon Jan 07, 2013 11:37 am Post subject: |
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| Greg Wright wrote: | | Martin Secrest wrote: |
Have you ever noticed that most of the time, the people doing it are hopelessly out of the race? |
No I haven't, In fact I've seen just the opposite with the lead pack turning into a push-fest. |
+1
| Ken Schilling wrote: |
The Hegar's have team drafting down to a science as they "leap frog" each other, and to the best of my knowledge without pushing.
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Yeppers.....that's exactly what I was talking about. |
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Chris Hegar
Joined: 25 Jun 2002
Posts: 3529
Location: United States, Oregon, Portland
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| Posted: Mon Jan 07, 2013 12:51 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | The Hegar's have team drafting down to a science as they "leap frog" each other, and to the best of my knowledge without pushing. |
Ya dragged me in I see, that's ok. 
We get charged with pushing/cheating/this that and the other lot's but it's a fact that we do not push in 125 and will police others when in a pack that start to do it. Many who run in a group with us and start a shove have probably seen me or my brother pointing at them and shaking our heads no on track. That being said yes we can push with anyone and when getting the occasional bump from an unknown in a group will not freak out. Wanna really go fast allow it in, accidents will happen people will quit. In 04 we went to Road America with CIK 125 open, the question was asked can we push? "yea it's ok on the chute but not in the corners" 8 car pushing was seen and times were fast and people were nuts. Fast guys still moved forward but it wasn't safe. We had to completely rewire our thinking from IKF never allowing it. We were also fairly new to situp racing on big tracks vs laydown. Notice racing at RA is gone, was this a contributing factor? Part of it I'd guess. Places like that are so big with so many karts it's hard to control who's naughty. The next year they said no pushing and did throw some people out but it still goes on. Point is if you leave it open without any threat people will do it constantly. Not making myself out to be an angel, just like others here if I'm screwing around in a 4 stroke I might get a black for being the shove master but when in Rome... ahhh whatever I'm bad sometimes, scold me. In 125 though at those speeds no we don't shove. Not scared of it but it really screws people that can't do it or are afraid and as noted a wreck will follow. CIK 125 cars pickup about 3 MPH within the last 5 feet of a bumper if you do it wrong or the guy in front is picking his nose or pushing a button on his gauge you have both got a problem.
My opinion, speeds in situp can be almost the same without pushing just using a good draft to move forward can be unstoppable. Your never going to clean up the major dirty air from a situp like you can in a laydown. Most CIK runners have never experienced it but in a laydown you put on a good move and pull off a car length or 2 and your solid safe out front most times and can build a lead. In a situp your just dragging a person or group along. We run hard up front and attempt to stay up front which avoids wrecks and the crazy's and sometimes you can get away when people start fighting for every corner. It never fails though, if one group breaks away without touching the chase group is guaranteed to start a shove to catch up. People think we being brothers and a "team" means we have some sort of plan to draft or set method which isn't the case. We will draft or race with anyone who is smart enough to know if you keep shaking the tree your gonna loose some apples on the way to the finish. In other words don't screw each other over corners and fall in line vs chopping each other off. I'll take anyone man, I wanna beat my brother more than most, I gotta ride home with the bastard and it's usually a long ride.  I've been told we should race every corner as hard as possible, fight fight fight for it because that's racing and yea that's true but it's not the best way to the checkered IMO in any part of this sport.
Sorry I might of touched on some of the stuff you guys already talked about, I didn't have time to read all of the above.
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David Cole
Site Admin
Joined: 18 Jul 2001
Posts: 8587
Location: United States, Michigan, Comstock Park
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Chris Hegar
Joined: 25 Jun 2002
Posts: 3529
Location: United States, Oregon, Portland
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| Posted: Mon Jan 07, 2013 2:37 pm Post subject: |
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I think that was the 05 but then again I'm old and the memory is fading fast. That's a crap load of 125 opens.  So weird how that camera guy goes shooting to the lead at about the 6:00 mark, so weird.
The unedited version of that video with spin is attached to my Facebook page in the video's section. I'm new to Facebook so forgive me if I seem lost explaining location.
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Last edited by Chris Hegar on Mon Jan 07, 2013 3:19 pm, edited 1 time in total |
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Ray Chiappe
Joined: 12 Apr 2003
Posts: 802
Location: United States, Nevada, Henderson
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| Posted: Mon Jan 07, 2013 2:58 pm Post subject: |
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Looks like there was a push to pass button!  |
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Jimmy McNeil
Joined: 12 Apr 2006
Posts: 1457
Location: United States, California, visalia
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| Posted: Mon Jan 07, 2013 3:21 pm Post subject: |
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Thats when it starts for me. Ill be a good boy until I see guys blowing by me nose to tail over and over, then its on.
The first time I seen it I was in the lead pack of about 10 guys, I found myself in the rear multiple times, I would pass a couple karts only to see them fly back by me nose to tail. I didnt drive 15 hours to finish in the back so like Chris said "when in Rome".
Ive never been "slam drafted", the guys up front seem to be skilled at bump drafting and do about as safe as possible IMO.
Im not going to lie, its fun and I enjoy doing it but I can see how it can be dangerous if done improperly and unfair to a guy that cant get any help.
| Quote: | | Why is this so hard? If you are being pushed, wave off the other driver and notify the stewards. |
I agree 100% Ken, until I put the helmet on and I see the leaders pulling away, then I pray for push |
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