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Chris Reinhardt
Joined: 29 Aug 2002
Posts: 2929
Location: United States, New York, Ossining
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 Posted: Tue Oct 23, 2012 1:07 pm Post subject: |
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| Jim McMahon wrote: | That's a mighty big "If" there. That was my point if you went from one day to the next like that and were not monitoring air density you might end up sticking again.
Hone is cheaper than a replate thats for sure. Most of the FA motors were iron cylinders too...
Anyway, back to our regular scheduled programming. |
Not an big "if" at all. Keep track of your weather data, adjust to RAD. Works every time. That's how it's done minus the stuck piston if you know what you're doing, add the stuck piston if you don't.....
Basically, the lamda data is useless unless your in a control environment. EGT and weather data is your friend.
Save yourself a whole lot of trouble and BS, buy a Computech Race Air, and be done with it....
CR
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joseph hollinger
Joined: 12 Sep 2002
Posts: 9475
Location: United States, California, san francisco
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| Posted: Tue Oct 23, 2012 1:11 pm Post subject: |
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| Chris Reinhardt wrote: |
Basically, the lamda data is useless unless your in a control environment. EGT and weather data is your friend.
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I don't think that is quite right. Lambda data should remain constant regardless of conditions. In practice it just turns out to be hard to measure. EGT is basically worthless since it changes every time you are on the track.
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Jim McMahon
Joined: 07 Apr 2007
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Location: United States, St. Paul,
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| Posted: Tue Oct 23, 2012 1:29 pm Post subject: |
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You've missed my point twice in a row Chris. Not sure if you are too preoccupied with your oneupmanship or something. I even highlighted the point I was trying to make in bold.
I already have a RAP. Yes, its great.
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Chris Reinhardt
Joined: 29 Aug 2002
Posts: 2929
Location: United States, New York, Ossining
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| Posted: Tue Oct 23, 2012 1:33 pm Post subject: |
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| joseph hollinger wrote: | | I don't think that is quite right. Lambda data should remain constant regardless of conditions. In practice it just turns out to be hard to measure. EGT is basically worthless since it changes every time you are on the track. |
How do you figure that? I have to hear this.......
CR
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joseph hollinger
Joined: 12 Sep 2002
Posts: 9475
Location: United States, California, san francisco
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| Posted: Tue Oct 23, 2012 1:43 pm Post subject: |
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| Chris Reinhardt wrote: | | joseph hollinger wrote: | | I don't think that is quite right. Lambda data should remain constant regardless of conditions. In practice it just turns out to be hard to measure. EGT is basically worthless since it changes every time you are on the track. |
How do you figure that? I have to hear this.......
CR |
Lambda is supposed to be a number X. You test to find the optimal value of X. On any subsequent day, you are supposed to tune until you hit X. That's the whole idea of Lambda.
For EGT, you don't aim for any particular number at all. You aim for the max value you can get during any session where the max corresponds to just richer than the value at which EGT stops rising with rising RPM.
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Chris Reinhardt
Joined: 29 Aug 2002
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Location: United States, New York, Ossining
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| Posted: Tue Oct 23, 2012 6:06 pm Post subject: |
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| joseph hollinger wrote: | Lambda is supposed to be a number X. You test to find the optimal value of X. On any subsequent day, you are supposed to tune until you hit X. That's the whole idea of Lambda.
For EGT, you don't aim for any particular number at all. You aim for the max value you can get during any session where the max corresponds to just richer than the value at which EGT stops rising with rising RPM. |
I don't "aim" for anything with anything, I use the egt for verification, I read plugs and piston tops.... Once you have a baseline jet, you don't need any gauge to verify, you adjust to weather via a RAD calculation and that's it. This isn't rocket science here folks....
Getting back to O2 sensor, from what I read and I believe they're used for is creating maps for fuel injection because they react faster than an EGT. Once the map is created, the system uses sensor to adjust the mixture to the weather, like TPS, water temp, and baro (MAP doesn't work with a 2 stroke). So in a dyno cell, with controlled conditions, the O2 would be useful, I don't think it will be of much use on the track...
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joseph hollinger
Joined: 12 Sep 2002
Posts: 9475
Location: United States, California, san francisco
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| Posted: Tue Oct 23, 2012 7:55 pm Post subject: |
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| Chris Reinhardt wrote: |
I don't "aim" for anything with anything, I use the egt for verification |
That's a little vague. Please explain what you think EGT is verifying.
| Chris Reinhardt wrote: |
Getting back to O2 sensor, from what I read and I believe they're used for is creating maps for fuel injection because they react faster than an EGT. Once the map is created, the system uses sensor to adjust the mixture to the weather, like TPS, water temp, and baro (MAP doesn't work with a 2 stroke). So in a dyno cell, with controlled conditions, the O2 would be useful, I don't think it will be of much use on the track... |
If done correctly Lambda could be enormously valuable. The problem is that the number is too hard to read and apply. If your dash showed you something like "average Lambda under power per lap" then you could absolutely tune to that number. You'd still use air density to set things up, but Lambda would be the real goal (since your air density stuff is really only as good as your prior test data). Oh, and this is something that would be trivial for your mychron to compute and display. The fact that it doesn't just shows you that there is a pretty big gap between end users and the people that develop data collection hardware and software.
Lambda and detonation detection would cover everything. And that's exactly what developers use when they have the budget.
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Chris Reinhardt
Joined: 29 Aug 2002
Posts: 2929
Location: United States, New York, Ossining
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| Posted: Wed Oct 24, 2012 3:05 am Post subject: |
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| joseph hollinger wrote: | | Chris Reinhardt wrote: |
I don't "aim" for anything with anything, I use the egt for verification |
That's a little vague. Please explain what you think EGT is verifying.
| Chris Reinhardt wrote: |
Getting back to O2 sensor, from what I read and I believe they're used for is creating maps for fuel injection because they react faster than an EGT. Once the map is created, the system uses sensor to adjust the mixture to the weather, like TPS, water temp, and baro (MAP doesn't work with a 2 stroke). So in a dyno cell, with controlled conditions, the O2 would be useful, I don't think it will be of much use on the track... |
If done correctly Lambda could be enormously valuable. The problem is that the number is too hard to read and apply. If your dash showed you something like "average Lambda under power per lap" then you could absolutely tune to that number. You'd still use air density to set things up, but Lambda would be the real goal (since your air density stuff is really only as good as your prior test data). Oh, and this is something that would be trivial for your mychron to compute and display. The fact that it doesn't just shows you that there is a pretty big gap between end users and the people that develop data collection hardware and software.
Lambda and detonation detection would cover everything. And that's exactly what developers use when they have the budget. |
It would be great, but it doesn't work with a leaded fuel 2 stroke.
You can hook up any telemetry device, O2, EGT, Glockenspiel, it's still only going to give you a number, the only way to know if it's lean enough, is to go too lean.... It's not going to tune it for you....
CR
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joseph hollinger
Joined: 12 Sep 2002
Posts: 9475
Location: United States, California, san francisco
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| Posted: Wed Oct 24, 2012 8:37 am Post subject: |
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| Chris Reinhardt wrote: |
It would be great, but it doesn't work with a leaded fuel 2 stroke. |
I can't think of a single good reason that we should be running leaded fuel anymore.
| Chris Reinhardt wrote: |
You can hook up any telemetry device, O2, EGT, Glockenspiel, it's still only going to give you a number, the only way to know if it's lean enough, is to go too lean.... It's not going to tune it for you....
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That's not really true. Detonation detection will tell you when you've hit the right value. Lambda will tell you as well, although you do have to have a baseline for Lambda. That's why they are better than EGT.
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Chris Reinhardt
Joined: 29 Aug 2002
Posts: 2929
Location: United States, New York, Ossining
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| Posted: Wed Oct 24, 2012 3:14 pm Post subject: |
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| Chris Reinhardt wrote: |
It would be great, but it doesn't work with a leaded fuel 2 stroke. |
| joseph hollinger wrote: | | I can't think of a single good reason that we should be running leaded fuel anymore. |
Or 2 strokes for that matter? You would have to get of both for a O2 sensor to work properly for any length of time....
| Chris Reinhardt wrote: |
You can hook up any telemetry device, O2, EGT, Glockenspiel, it's still only going to give you a number, the only way to know if it's lean enough, is to go too lean.... It's not going to tune it for you....
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| joseph hollinger wrote: | | That's not really true. Detonation detection will tell you when you've hit the right value. Lambda will tell you as well, although you do have to have a baseline for Lambda. That's why they are better than EGT. |
It's not true? Are you grasping at straws again??? Please tell us how the Deto sensor knows it's lean. or rich, or has too much timing, or wrong gear, or the engine is running too hot, or it's on the needle and not on the main.
Again Joseph so my neighbors cat can understand, my dog has got it already.
ALL THE DATA IN THE WORLD IS USELESS UNLESS YOU HAVE A BASELINE AND GOOD WEATHER DATA TO CALIBRATE FROM.....
OK the cat's got it, how we doing Joe? 
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joseph hollinger
Joined: 12 Sep 2002
Posts: 9475
Location: United States, California, san francisco
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| Posted: Wed Oct 24, 2012 11:24 pm Post subject: |
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| Chris Reinhardt wrote: |
Or 2 strokes for that matter? You would have to get of both for a O2 sensor to work properly for any length of time....
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And why is that?
| Chris Reinhardt wrote: |
ALL THE DATA IN THE WORLD IS USELESS UNLESS YOU HAVE A BASELINE AND GOOD WEATHER DATA TO CALIBRATE FROM.....
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I've tried pretty hard to explain this to you Chris. Unfortunately, I can't understand it for you. You're assertion is wrong. A good detonation detector that's properly installed and tuned will trigger at a very low rate when mixture is optimal. Something like 2 or 3 triggers per mile. You tune until you hit that. You don't need a baseline and you don't need weather data. Those things would certainly help you get to the answer faster, but they are certainly not required.
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Chris Reinhardt
Joined: 29 Aug 2002
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Location: United States, New York, Ossining
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| Posted: Thu Oct 25, 2012 3:39 am Post subject: |
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| joseph hollinger wrote: | | Chris Reinhardt wrote: |
Or 2 strokes for that matter? You would have to get of both for a O2 sensor to work properly for any length of time....
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And why is that?
| Chris Reinhardt wrote: |
ALL THE DATA IN THE WORLD IS USELESS UNLESS YOU HAVE A BASELINE AND GOOD WEATHER DATA TO CALIBRATE FROM.....
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I've tried pretty hard to explain this to you Chris. Unfortunately, I can't understand it for you. You're assertion is wrong. A good detonation detector that's properly installed and tuned will trigger at a very low rate when mixture is optimal. Something like 2 or 3 triggers per mile. You tune until you hit that. You don't need a baseline and you don't need weather data. Those things would certainly help you get to the answer faster, but they are certainly not required. |
I completely understand how a deto sensor works, I'm installing one for my dyno use. It still won't tune for you and it doesn't know why its getting hits, it just hears a noise and the amp/filter is tuned to give an output. It could be a broken mount making noise, it could be bad fuel, it could be too much ignition timing, it could be too small a stinger opening, it could be too hot. BTW Honda's deto sensor your describing that gives hits per kilometer, gives even less information because you don't know at what rpm range you're getting the deto, just that you're getting deto.. It's also NLA..
So without a weather station, or previous data, what do you do, change jets while your driving?
What your describing is how a baseline could be created, it wouldn't make sense or be productive to start from scratch every time you hit the track...
Here's some info for you.....
http://www.iane.co.uk/store/honda-rs125-specialist-page/rs125-electronics/rs125/rs250-detonation-counter/prod_34.html
CR
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East Coast Super Kart Series
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joseph hollinger
Joined: 12 Sep 2002
Posts: 9475
Location: United States, California, san francisco
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| Posted: Thu Oct 25, 2012 10:41 am Post subject: |
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| Chris Reinhardt wrote: | I completely understand how a deto sensor works, I'm installing one for my dyno use. It still won't tune for you and it doesn't know why its getting hits, it just hears a noise and the amp/filter is tuned to give an output. It could be a broken mount making noise, it could be bad fuel, it could be too much ignition timing, it could be too small a stinger opening, it could be too hot.
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Well, you're baseline isn't going to fix your broken motor mount either, now is it? No one said that using a detonation counter was going to be some sort of cure-all. In fact, the only argument that I've made is that it allows you to tune without having to rely on a baseline and that it allows you to tune without going over the line (which is what is required for EGT tuning).
| Chris Reinhardt wrote: |
BTW Honda's deto sensor your describing that gives hits per kilometer, gives even less information because you don't know at what rpm range you're getting the deto, just that you're getting deto.. It's also NLA.. |
I never mentioned Honda.
| Chris Reinhardt wrote: |
So without a weather station, or previous data, what do you do, change jets while your driving? |
That's what you do, isn't it?
| Chris Reinhardt wrote: |
What your describing is how a baseline could be created, it wouldn't make sense or be productive to start from scratch every time you hit the track...
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No disagreement there Chris. Any smart person is always going to start from some know-good setup. But having a working Lambda or detonation counter is going to tell you if what you think is optimal really is optimal. EGT can't do that for the reasons that I've already discussed. And if you don't have a baseline such as where you changed to a new exhaust or other major change, those devices are going to get you to the right answer faster without having to step over the line and possible stick your motor.
If you didn't believe that you wouldn't be buying one for your dyno, now would you?
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Chris Reinhardt
Joined: 29 Aug 2002
Posts: 2929
Location: United States, New York, Ossining
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| Posted: Thu Oct 25, 2012 11:24 am Post subject: |
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| joseph hollinger wrote: | No disagreement there Chris. Any smart person is always going to start from some know-good setup. But having a working Lambda or detonation counter is going to tell you if what you think is optimal really is optimal. EGT can't do that for the reasons that I've already discussed. And if you don't have a baseline such as where you changed to a new exhaust or other major change, those devices are going to get you to the right answer faster without having to step over the line and possible stick your motor.
If you didn't believe that you wouldn't be buying one for your dyno, now would you? |
That's the part you don't get... ANY data device, 128 channel Motec, whatever, is only going to give you data, which is worthless unless you have something to compare to. You still have to read the plug and pistons, etc. And even if you have that data compared to known "on the edge" data, all that is worthless unless you can calibrate it to the weather.
EGT works just fine for tuning.... Deto sensor works great for ignition tuning which what I'm going to use it for...
Here's some more info for yah.....
| Ian Harrison wrote: | Hi Al
Never seen anything like you describe when running a synthetic even years ago. Perhaps it's the brand you are using??!!
All clean as a whistle all the time and never a sign of any gum whatsoever????
Yes we run EGT sensors on our AIM loggers. On the Honda CR250 singles we site the probe at 150mm from the piston face measured along the top of the port.
See attached data from Donington Park. As you can see the max EGT is related to the peak speed of 124.6mph and 11,390 rpm (as always slight damping delay)
Google tells me that 726 degrees Celsius is 1338.8 degrees F. As I say we always run on the edge (where esle is there?)  
Just pulled the cylinder off a motor that has done a weekends racing using Putoline RS959 Synthetic. Cylinder was never lifted all weekend. Clean as a whistle. 
Best Regards
Ian |
You want to barrow him?
CR
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joseph hollinger
Joined: 12 Sep 2002
Posts: 9475
Location: United States, California, san francisco
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| Posted: Thu Oct 25, 2012 11:40 am Post subject: |
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| Chris Reinhardt wrote: |
That's the part you don't get... ANY data device, 128 channel Motec, whatever, is only going to give you data, which is worthless unless you have something to compare to. |
That's your argument now? I know you want to find something to be right about, but I'm going to wait around while you shop around for whatever that might be. So let me repeat (again): my only arguments are that 1) you don't need a baseline (which you've claimed) and that 2) you don't need to go overly lean. That's it Chris. If you have some arguments directed to #1 or #2, fine, otherwise I'm out.
Stick to the freaking point.
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