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Benn Herr
Joined: 18 Jul 2001
Posts: 1579
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George Sunderland
Joined: 26 Jul 2001
Posts: 2006
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 Posted: Wed Oct 17, 2012 10:19 am Post subject: |
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Both are really good looking original designs. I sure wish I had the skill and tooling to do that. Benn: From the front on view, your kart almost looks like an old BlackHawk chassis (minus the adjustable front end) if you know what I mean. One question: Why did you guys go with the traditional bodywork? Seems like Shampine's "Sit-Up Enduro/Road Race Sprint" Radical 1 nose and sides is a LOT more aerodynamic than the regular superkart nose and sides.
Sure hope karting always keeps this type of original thinking mad scientist element to it. Way cooler than the cookie cutter stuff. |
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Benn Herr
Joined: 18 Jul 2001
Posts: 1579
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| Posted: Wed Oct 17, 2012 1:38 pm Post subject: |
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George,
I went with the usual Superkart bodywork so if the kart did well it would be because of the chassis, not the bodywork. Plus the side pods fit better around the back wheels and engine when you spread things out.
Allen re-cycled a nose and driver fairing that he had used before. The rest of it is all custom. In fact the rear wing on mine is one I had used when I drove (many years ago).
Plus I knew it would be enough of a challage just to get the kart together. I didn't need MORE things that had to be figured out!
That'll be next. 
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Benn Herr
Come see our Superkart Build Off @
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http://www.lostenduros.com/
Kart Design
Chandler, Az. |
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Greg Lindahl
Joined: 13 Jan 2011
Posts: 264
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| Posted: Wed Oct 17, 2012 2:29 pm Post subject: |
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| Will you be at Sonoma, Ben? |
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Benn Herr
Joined: 18 Jul 2001
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Chris Reinhardt
Joined: 29 Aug 2002
Posts: 2922
Location: United States, New York, Ossining
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| Posted: Wed Oct 17, 2012 5:44 pm Post subject: |
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[quote="George Sunderland"Why did you guys go with the traditional bodywork? Seems like Shampine's "Sit-Up Enduro/Road Race Sprint" Radical 1 nose and sides is a LOT more aerodynamic than the regular superkart nose and sides.
[/quote]
Ed's stuff is top notch, but the Superkart stuff is slipperier than you think, and the nose gives lots of down force.....
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East Coast Super Kart Series
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CR2 Motorsports
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www.CR2MotorSports.webs.com |
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Greg Lindahl
Joined: 13 Jan 2011
Posts: 264
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| Posted: Thu Oct 18, 2012 8:20 am Post subject: |
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CD numbers on Superkarts are about the same as open wheel formula race cars. NOTE: CD does not include frontal area, only the Coefficient of Drag.
Source: Racecar Engineering.
Slippery and effecient are different. Efficient = good negative lift vs. drag number. Slipper = low CD number. Superkarts are high powered enough to focus on efficiency; -L/D rather than slippery. I think there's quite a bit left on the "table" WRT effeciency for modern superkarts, but what do I know, I don't race or develop one and few if anyone has actual numbers to apply to this subject. Most of what I read is opinion, at best. Without actual back to back and/or a well developed windtunnel data, it's hearsay.
YMMV and IMHO as well. |
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Benn Herr
Joined: 18 Jul 2001
Posts: 1579
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| Posted: Thu Oct 18, 2012 10:05 am Post subject: |
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I believe that Superkarts generally have too much down force. Without a differential we still have to lighten the inside rear to get the kart to turn. If the nose is planted enough to get good grip, you have to balance it with the rear wing. Too much wing and you burn the front tires off with a push. That's why CIK sprinters do as well as they do on road courses. Very little down force lets them roll freely through the turns - especially high speed turns where a lot of time can be made or lost.
When I find the time I want to work on low drag/down force bodywork and put just enough down force devices on it to keep it stable.
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Benn Herr
Come see our Superkart Build Off @
http://www.lostenduros.com/?page_id=1534
beherr3@cox.net
http://www.southwestkarters.com/
http://www.lostenduros.com/
Kart Design
Chandler, Az. |
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alan speyrer
Joined: 22 Apr 2008
Posts: 1329
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| Posted: Thu Oct 18, 2012 12:21 pm Post subject: |
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i too am designing some bodywork, and with any luck this winter i will get it done.
| Benn Herr wrote: | I believe that Superkarts generally have too much down force. Without a differential we still have to lighten the inside rear to get the kart to turn. If the nose is planted enough to get good grip, you have to balance it with the rear wing. Too much wing and you burn the front tires off with a push. That's why CIK sprinters do as well as they do on road courses. Very little down force lets them roll freely through the turns - especially high speed turns where a lot of time can be made or lost.
When I find the time I want to work on low drag/down force bodywork and put just enough down force devices on it to keep it stable. |
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Sam Moss
Joined: 28 Aug 2012
Posts: 16
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| Posted: Thu Oct 18, 2012 12:23 pm Post subject: |
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It Depends massively on the tracks you race on. Here in the UK tracks like Croft, Oulton Park, Cadwell require a lot of downforce as you gain much more time on the corners than the straights.
Silverstone is an in between track but Thruxton is the only track we tend to trim down the downforce. To give you an example I took off the end plates and lower winglets and ran the new low drag wing at thruxton. I was 3/4 mph average quicker on top speed but I lost the race on the fact braking distance was much longer at the end of the straight.
Louis Wall who won the race could simply out brake me every time into the chicane and he ran the low drag wing, endplates and mudguards rather than the winglets.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QQ7g1KqJ_mA |
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Chris Reinhardt
Joined: 29 Aug 2002
Posts: 2922
Location: United States, New York, Ossining
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| Posted: Thu Oct 18, 2012 1:40 pm Post subject: |
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Advantage CFD did a whole study and implementation for a Superkart, a while back, that other pic I posted was a test session Russell Anderson's drivers did to improve the efficiency of the bodywork.
I don't think anybody has done any research like that into any other kart bodywork....
The Superkart stuff is pretty slippery for the amount of down force it produces, you can also trim most of that down force out.....
CR
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East Coast Super Kart Series
"This is how we roll!"
www.eastcoastsuperkart.webs.com
CR2 Motorsports
"Home of Cobalt Superkarts"
www.CR2MotorSports.webs.com |
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Sam Moss
Joined: 28 Aug 2012
Posts: 16
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| Posted: Thu Oct 18, 2012 3:26 pm Post subject: |
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If I remember correctly they tested a few karts at the MIRA wind tunnel and the piece was featured in RaceCar Engineering?
Gavin was in the tunnel testing the newer rear wing design as well as Ben / Rob Wiltshire with their 125 and also Phil Featherstome with the Raider PFP kart. |
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Chris Reinhardt
Joined: 29 Aug 2002
Posts: 2922
Location: United States, New York, Ossining
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Greg Lindahl
Joined: 13 Jan 2011
Posts: 264
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| Posted: Thu Oct 18, 2012 5:20 pm Post subject: |
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| That's the article Sam. Cd was about the same as a Formula Ford with it's open wheels and trim body but little almost no downforce. I'd really like to work on a superkart aero development because I believe there are good opportunities for improvement. |
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Tyson Henry
Joined: 10 Aug 2011
Posts: 343
Location: United States, Texas, Arlington
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| Posted: Mon Oct 29, 2012 3:02 pm Post subject: |
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