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Ray Lovestead
Joined: 21 Dec 2011
Posts: 156
Location: United States, Colorado, Louisville
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 Posted: Sun Mar 25, 2012 8:28 pm Post subject: KERS system for karts? |
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Crazy idea: Has anyone considered/seen a KERS (kenetic energy recovery system) in use on a kart? From what I've been able to dream up, this would be pretty simple to setup. Any DC motor can be both the charge and 'discharge'. With new ultracapacitor technology (and lower costs) it could be feasible.
From a quick search I found that you could reasonably get a 10hp dc motor and set up about 50lbs of battery/supercapacitor.
Ray
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Bill Martin
Joined: 20 Jul 2001
Posts: 401
Location: United States, California, Escondido
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| Posted: Mon Mar 26, 2012 12:08 pm Post subject: Re: KERS system for karts? |
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| Ray Lovestead wrote: | Crazy idea: Has anyone considered/seen a KERS (kenetic energy recovery system) in use on a kart? From what I've been able to dream up, this would be pretty simple to setup. Any DC motor can be both the charge and 'discharge'. With new ultracapacitor technology (and lower costs) it could be feasible.
From a quick search I found that you could reasonably get a 10hp dc motor and set up about 50lbs of battery/supercapacitor.
Ray |
It might be "easy" to bolt something onto a chassis, but it will not be so easy to develop the electronics to control the charging. Discharging is relatively "easy"...but not charging. for example, when you want the motor to do some cap charging, how do you keep the load from locking up the driving axle it is attached to? Will you have enough braking zones to get a good charge before you want to use it? just a few thoughts...
bill
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Wayne Williams
Joined: 05 Jul 2002
Posts: 134
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| Posted: Mon Mar 26, 2012 1:04 pm Post subject: |
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| If it's so easy, why do F1 teams with 9-figure budgets struggle with it still? |
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Jim McMahon
Joined: 07 Apr 2007
Posts: 2664
Location: United States, St. Paul,
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Ray Lovestead
Joined: 21 Dec 2011
Posts: 156
Location: United States, Colorado, Louisville
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| Posted: Mon Mar 26, 2012 1:49 pm Post subject: |
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Oh come on. Anyone with a rudimentary understanding of electrical engineering principles could do it in a weekend.
Just kidding of course. I'm a EE working at an Aerospace company. I've got a building full of guys who could do it no problemo.
Frankly, what I want is a Turbo button. After all, that is what the KERS really is. Who out there didn't buy a computer in the early 1990s and didn't like the 'turbo' button on front (even though it was just to control timing in batch type/ascii programs). Who doesn't assume that every car Bond owns has such a button.
I'm just wondering if anyone out there is already working on it.
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Tracy Simmons
Joined: 01 Aug 2001
Posts: 359
Location: United States, Arizona,
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| Posted: Mon Mar 26, 2012 2:20 pm Post subject: |
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| Ray Lovestead wrote: | | I'm just wondering if anyone out there is already working on it. |
We nominate you! Get back to us when you have one that is small, light and most importantly, cheap.  |
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Chuck Skowron
Joined: 19 Jul 2001
Posts: 1151
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| Posted: Mon Mar 26, 2012 2:58 pm Post subject: |
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| Ray Lovestead wrote: |
Frankly, what I want is a Turbo button. After all, that is what the KERS really is. Who out there didn't buy a computer in the early 1990s and didn't like the 'turbo' button on front (even though it was just to control timing in batch type/ascii programs). Who doesn't assume that every car Bond owns has such a button.
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No gimmicks please.
Besides, if you ever saw Mini Max drivers hopping up and down in their seats, somebody has come up with their version of a "turbo" in karting already.
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C. Skowron
CRG/Spec Honda - 15 |
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jeff grose
Joined: 11 Dec 2008
Posts: 1249
Location: United States, Florida, cocoa
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| Posted: Mon Mar 26, 2012 6:43 pm Post subject: |
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| Chuck Skowron wrote: | | Ray Lovestead wrote: |
Frankly, what I want is a Turbo button. After all, that is what the KERS really is. Who out there didn't buy a computer in the early 1990s and didn't like the 'turbo' button on front (even though it was just to control timing in batch type/ascii programs). Who doesn't assume that every car Bond owns has such a button.
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No gimmicks please.
Besides, if you ever saw Mini Max drivers hopping up and down in their seats, somebody has come up with their version of a "turbo" in karting already.
If you watched Florida Winter Tour (Rotax MiniMax) Ocala, looks like there was a speed bump installed on the track, 1hop and the rest followed the leader^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^- and so on
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C. Skowron
CRG/Spec Honda - 15 |
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Steve O'Hara
Joined: 02 Jan 2002
Posts: 1062
Location: United States, California,
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| Posted: Tue Mar 27, 2012 1:25 am Post subject: |
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Ray,
I investigated the concept in 1975 and considered two types of KERS type systems, one electronic and one based on compressed air.
I was advised by the tech committee members I ran it by that it would be banned immediately on site!
Never pursued it any further.
Shortly after the KT100 arrived on the scene I designed an air filter cup that enhanced the air flow at the carb and it was effectively banned right away.
Built the first expansion chamber with driver activated independent control of both the scavenge cone and convergent cone in the late 70s and it was banned promptly. A year or two later showed up with a diffuser system built into the floor pan on my Hartman enduro... won the race and it was banned before the next race.
Are you seeing a pattern here???
Mainstream karting does not welcome innovation, it penalizes it.
The only place where any creative thinking takes place these days is the dirt kart and oval racers that haven't bought into the European model of racing spec chassis made by a bunch of different ( but the same) manufactures but equipped with a nice variety of cool stickers LOL
In the 60s and 70s we built open engines, exotic clutches, a different pipe every race, etc... the modern karter is an expert in rear axles and hubs.
Some progress eh?
Steve O'Hara |
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Tim Pappas
Joined: 25 Jul 2001
Posts: 791
Location: Burkina Faso,
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| Posted: Tue Mar 27, 2012 5:24 am Post subject: |
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| Steve O'Hara wrote: | Ray,
I investigated the concept in 1975 and considered two types of KERS type systems, one electronic and one based on compressed air.
I was advised by the tech committee members I ran it by that it would be banned immediately on site!
Never pursued it any further.
Shortly after the KT100 arrived on the scene I designed an air filter cup that enhanced the air flow at the carb and it was effectively banned right away.
Built the first expansion chamber with driver activated independent control of both the scavenge cone and convergent cone in the late 70s and it was banned promptly. A year or two later showed up with a diffuser system built into the floor pan on my Hartman enduro... won the race and it was banned before the next race.
Are you seeing a pattern here???
Mainstream karting does not welcome innovation, it penalizes it.
The only place where any creative thinking takes place these days is the dirt kart and oval racers that haven't bought into the European model of racing spec chassis made by a bunch of different ( but the same) manufactures but equipped with a nice variety of cool stickers LOL
In the 60s and 70s we built open engines, exotic clutches, a different pipe every race, etc... the modern karter is an expert in rear axles and hubs.
Some progress eh?
Steve O'Hara |
Add exhaust water injection, 3 disc moto clutches, dry sump transmissions, any electronics other than basic data, etc......
"Mainstream karting does not welcome innovation, it penalizes it."
Couldn't have said it better. Kartiing is stagnate and boring from a tech standpoint because everyone believes that if they only had the same thing that everyone else has, they would win. Then after a couple years they realize they suck and quit. Hence the 3 year kart racer turnover. Those of us who love and stay in karting are stuck with the rules and engine packages that are made to make the racers happy that will leave the sport in three years. Go figure.
tp
[/b] |
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Bill Wright
Joined: 27 Jul 2001
Posts: 1005
Location: United States, Florida, Panama City
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| Posted: Tue Mar 27, 2012 5:42 am Post subject: |
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| Tim Pappas wrote: | | Steve O'Hara wrote: | Ray,
I investigated the concept in 1975 and considered two types of KERS type systems, one electronic and one based on compressed air.
I was advised by the tech committee members I ran it by that it would be banned immediately on site!
Never pursued it any further.
Shortly after the KT100 arrived on the scene I designed an air filter cup that enhanced the air flow at the carb and it was effectively banned right away.
Built the first expansion chamber with driver activated independent control of both the scavenge cone and convergent cone in the late 70s and it was banned promptly. A year or two later showed up with a diffuser system built into the floor pan on my Hartman enduro... won the race and it was banned before the next race.
Are you seeing a pattern here???
Mainstream karting does not welcome innovation, it penalizes it.
The only place where any creative thinking takes place these days is the dirt kart and oval racers that haven't bought into the European model of racing spec chassis made by a bunch of different ( but the same) manufactures but equipped with a nice variety of cool stickers LOL
In the 60s and 70s we built open engines, exotic clutches, a different pipe every race, etc... the modern karter is an expert in rear axles and hubs.
Some progress eh?
Steve O'Hara |
Add exhaust water injection, 3 disc moto clutches, dry sump transmissions, any electronics other than basic data, etc......
"Mainstream karting does not welcome innovation, it penalizes it."
Couldn't have said it better. Kartiing is stagnate and boring from a tech standpoint because everyone believes that if they only had the same thing that everyone else has, they would win. Then after a couple years they realize they suck and quit. Hence the 3 year kart racer turnover. Those of us who love and stay in karting are stuck with the rules and engine packages that are made to make the racers happy that will leave the sport in three years. Go figure.
tp
[/b] |
FWT......FORMULA KART RACING.....OPEN SHIFTER....nough said! 
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Formula Kart Productions, Inc "SERIOUS FUN!"
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John Mcgreadie
Joined: 24 Mar 2012
Posts: 3
Location: Australia, Western Australia,
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| Posted: Tue Mar 27, 2012 6:14 am Post subject: Re: KERS system for karts? |
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| Ray Lovestead wrote: | Crazy idea: Has anyone considered/seen a KERS (kenetic energy recovery system) in use on a kart? From what I've been able to dream up, this would be pretty simple to setup. Any DC motor can be both the charge and 'discharge'. With new ultracapacitor technology (and lower costs) it could be feasible.
From a quick search I found that you could reasonably get a 10hp dc motor and set up about 50lbs of battery/supercapacitor.
Ray |
I have thought about this, but have been thinking of a mechanical version with the introduction of a flywheel(s) that could be brought up to speed and engaged to the rear axle out of a slow corner via say a paddle on the steering wheel.
Do we think this would be possible/worthwhile, would love to get an old kart to try some of this out.
John
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Greg Wright
Joined: 25 Oct 2001
Posts: 2496
Location: United States, Indiana, Clermont
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| Posted: Tue Mar 27, 2012 7:01 am Post subject: |
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| Steve O'Hara wrote: |
In the 60s and 70s we built open engines, exotic clutches, a different pipe every race, etc... the modern karter is an expert in rear axles and hubs.
Some progress eh?
Steve O'Hara |
I couldn't have said it better. Good post Steve.
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Rapid Racing Inc.
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I AM INDY!!
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Ray Lovestead
Joined: 21 Dec 2011
Posts: 156
Location: United States, Colorado, Louisville
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| Posted: Tue Mar 27, 2012 8:02 am Post subject: |
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Steve
It is good to know there are others out there like me who like to tinker. To me, karting is just one avenue to persue ideas, not just racing around in a circle. I don't like the idea of spec anything and am constantly trying a better mouse trap. Even if the mouse trap doesn't catch anything.
I'm going to ask some of the power engineers around here what they think about the idea. It would be a blast (no pun intended) to have some kind of system that replicate the KERS.
Ray
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Bill Martin
Joined: 20 Jul 2001
Posts: 401
Location: United States, California, Escondido
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| Posted: Tue Mar 27, 2012 2:15 pm Post subject: |
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| Ray Lovestead wrote: | Steve
It is good to know there are others out there like me who like to tinker. To me, karting is just one avenue to persue ideas, not just racing around in a circle. I don't like the idea of spec anything and am constantly trying a better mouse trap. Even if the mouse trap doesn't catch anything.
I'm going to ask some of the power engineers around here what they think about the idea. It would be a blast (no pun intended) to have some kind of system that replicate the KERS.
Ray |
I vote for one of those ACME rocket kits Wiley Coyote was into using...way more spectacle than pumping electrons back & forth! 
Bill
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