Home Forums General Karting Discussion Why do drivers sit so tall in sprint karts?

This topic contains 55 replies, has 19 voices, and was last updated by  Scot Smith 4 years, 10 months ago.

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  • #14409

    Paul Kish
    Participant

    I don’t see what advantage there is for a driver to sit up so high in the seat.

    Are there rules requiring it?

    The obvious is if there was something faster sprint karts would not be designed that way.  But there must be some reason it’s done.

    I’d bet this has been asked before.  If someone can point me to a previous discussion of it on here, it would be good enough and I’ll go there to read.

     

    thank you

     

    Brake, Insert 'arc', Turn, Accelerate

  • #14414

    Stewart Willis
    Participant

    weight transfer

  • #14415

    russ Jolly
    Participant

    Isnt there a rule in some classes about the seat being so far back or the back being so close to the axle? Some I would imagine like it because of the control you get over the steering wheel.

  • #14418

    Walt Gifford
    Participant

    Seat has to be in front of the back edge of the rear axle and 14″ from the ground min.

    Gif

     

     

     

    FAA certified jet engine and aircraft technician,
    Nicholson Speedway class champion 2001,
    Yamaha KT100 Service Center,
    41 years karting experience

  • #14422

    Matt Dixon
    Participant

    It’s all about kart set up, lighter drivers tend to set the CG a little higher. Even more so in low grip situations. But that’s just this wet behind the ears, pre teen’s opinion… and Stewart’s.

     

    94y

  • #14425

    TJ Koyen
    Moderator

    Because that’s how sprint karts work. You need to transfer weight efficiently so you need a higher CG to get the kart to rotate.

    Driver/Coach/Wrench : Innovative Performance/Exprit
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  • #14489

    Timothy Strawkas
    Participant

    I used to think same as most but, In the last two years its been proven that ether setup can win at the highest level. The only class I have not seen it(lay-down seat) win (yet) is in TAG. I’ve seen “sit-up” karts with lay down seats run identical lap times as a regular “4cycle chassis” and vice versa.

    The true question is, which seat compliments your physical size, and you driving preference I think. period.

  • #14506

    Paul Kish
    Participant

    Jimmy, been there done that as far as watching and seeing the difference in the corners and you are 100% correct.

    But while reading your reply, this came to mind.  I’ll bet if you can give me a very short driver in a short laydown kart, we will keep up just fine in the corners.

    paul

    Brake, Insert 'arc', Turn, Accelerate

  • #14507

    Jimmy McNeil
    Participant

    Paul, if your theory was accurate, when it rains, people would lower their seats for additional grip. It’s just the opposite. When it rains, people raise their seats for a higher center of gravity. This does two thing, on corner entry it transferes weight to the outside front, lifting the inside rear allowing the chassis to rotate. It also transferes weight to the outside tires through the corner for additional grip/speed.

    Hope I’m explaining this ok.

    When your over stuck, lower the seat to take out grip

  • #14508

    Paul Kish
    Participant

    <div class=”d4p-bbp-quote-title”>Jimmy McNeil wrote:</div>
    Paul, if your theory was accurate, when it rains, people would lower their seats for additional grip. It’s just the opposite. When it rains, people raise their seats for a higher center of gravity. This does two thing, on corner entry it transferes weight to the outside front, lifting the inside rear allowing the chassis to rotate. It also transferes weight to the outside tires through the corner for additional grip/speed. Hope I’m explaining this ok. When your over stuck, lower the seat to take out grip

    :)  I agree with everything you said except: the if your theory was accurate part. … :)

    What works when and what you do when, depends on available grip, available hp and I usually will say the need to maintain momentum.  But with the rain scenario I’ll change the last to “the need to deal with momentum and the ability to brake”.

    I’m assuming there is enough grip to handle either a sit up kart or a seat laid back seat kart.   I’m seeing the sit up kart in the corner with the inside rear off the track and all rear load on the outside rear.  And the alternative I’m seeing is the laid back seat kart with the inside rear not completely off the track and all of the rear load not completely on the outside rear, with some load on the slipping inside rear.

    I’m tired and I’ll read this in the morning.  I may see my folly in it or I may say brilliant explanation… nawww that won’t happen

    Brake, Insert 'arc', Turn, Accelerate

  • #14513

    Tim Pappas
    Participant

    I think there is a great opportunity for you Paul.  Throw a laydown seat in a chassis and head to the Supernats.  The track is a great test….no grip to start and decent grip by the end of the weekend.  After your laydown seated kart smokes all those silly sit up drivers you can go into business selling laydown seats to all the Euro chassis guys or pimp yourself as a set up guru.

    P.S.  The track turns right and left…stagger won’t help you.

  • #14518

    Rodney Ebersole
    Participant

    Paul, With either seat the top point of the pyramid of traction control is the seat/driver. The bottom is the tires contact points. The taller the pyramid is will increase the amount of  vertical force upon the contact points when trying to change direction.

    A lay down seat set up would need  narrower and shorter contact points in order to try and equal the vertical force that a sit up seat would have.  At some point in width and length decreases it would not be able to produce as much vertical force upon the tires.

    Horizontal forces and dirt reduce grip .

  • #14520

    Paul Kish
    Participant

    <div class=”d4p-bbp-quote-title”>Tim Pappas wrote:</div>
    I think there is a great opportunity for you Paul. Throw a laydown seat in a chassis and head to the Supernats. The track is a great test….no grip to start and decent grip by the end of the weekend. After your laydown seated kart smokes all those silly sit up drivers you can go into business selling laydown seats to all the Euro chassis guys or pimp yourself as a set up guru. P.S. The track turns right and left…stagger won’t help you.

    I expected and anticipated someone to bring stagger into this thread.

    If you will notice I related what I’m introducing here to LTO racing only for the reason of bringing in the thought of splitting slip angles between rear tires and how it may be an advantage over not splitting them.  I started the thread to try to get into a discussion of why do most all sprint racers sit in such an up right position.  I’m open to what may flow from it so long as the direction does not include throwing barbs and arrows and new directions it may take.  I did not bring in stagger.  I did not bring it in because it does not apply.  I don’t think using something which does not apply to the parameters the thread is so far addressing, is meaningful in any way.  I don’t race.  I tried it and found out I was no good at it.  I’m going to try to address your kind input and try to answer in a way it will keep this thread on a path I want to take.

    Repeating myself, stagger has nothing at all to do with the possible benefit I see from increasing the splitting of slip angles between the rear tires.  Though it helps when you turn in only one direction, stagger is not a way to match up the rear tires to the radius of a turn.  It is something when used as needed can provide additional control of direction for whole kart, in addition to the directional control you get from the front tires.  Stagger can also be the primary thing which controls the direction of travel of what your racing.  Produced slip angles at the rear, weather you are using stagger or not, will allow for more efficient travel through a corner if split between rear tires.  I said nothing about the ability to meet the ideal or not.  You may not, but I see it as obvious how varying the situation and circumstances will either enhance your ability to get close to ideal or not.  I also see how if you have an abundance of one of the things I have mentioned or a lack of another, you may not have the ability to even try to get close.   Again those things you have to use and blend are available grip, available hp and the need to maintain momentum.

    In the case of the track you mentioned which goes from slick to grip.  Just in case your not already aware of the obvious, I’ll point out the obvious to you.  Maybe the next time you race there it will help you play a way to attack the track, which goes from slick to grip.  The two obvious things you have to deal with are the changing available grip and what is most always over looked and usually not even considered, the reduction of forces available to you when the track grip is reduced.  I assume you know what you can and cannot do to physically increase grip when the track is fresh and slick.  Actually you are limited to doing things directly to the tires.  The tires are the only thing which you can change that will directly and physically change grip.  Everything else you do is because of changing the levels of forces available to you.  Simply put all the other setup things you can do, are to make the chassis react quicker to move the force of the CG to tires or slower.  When the track slicks it assumes it’s easier to exceed the limit of grip at the tires.  Even with a slick track your only option may be to bang weight quickly into a tire and hope it holds.  Other times you need to bang or move weight quickly over to where it is going to operate a tire and then ease it into the tire as best you can, trying again not to exceed it’s limit.  It just depends on need at the tire and the tires ability to grip, how you move weight and the speed you move weight.

    I’m going to stop.  I think I addressed that I am not even considering stagger when writing on here.  And that if stagger is introduced as an argument in this thread, how it is meaningless to the direction of this thread.  And I hope I showed that I do see how setup needs to be shifted in the way it will deal with available force, when a track goes from slick to grip or vice versa.

    If you would when thinking about if it’s really a benefit to split slip angles between the rear tires, just pick one scenario of available grip and available hp and stick with it in your mind.  I think if you can keep the scenario you relate to for the time being constant, if what I’m proposing is valid it will fit in.  If you do fit it into just one scenario, I think you will then be able to fit it into other situations of available hp and available grip.  I don’t mean to keep harping on available grip and available hp, but I have to because the hp you relate to when thinking about on track situations is just as important to define the situation as available grip.  I’ll assume every driver is driving perfectly and there are no things a driver can do to fix a problem.  By the way, there is no need to think about or understand any of this, unless you can use it to fix on track problems.  Without the ability to relate theory to fixing on track problems, it’s all meaningless.  When I’m at a track, unless approached with a specific problem by a driver or a crew member or unless I see an obvious mechanical issue needing addressed, I never comment on things without first knowing the driver or crew or I have the same understanding of an on track problem.  I don’t care if your the best driver in the world and never loose, your a racer and your out there to win and win in such a way second place wonders why there even racing.  But if I happen along and correctly bring up a specific on track problem your having your going to want to talk about it.  Well, most all will want to talk about it because there are three phases in learning to drive.  The first your starting out and your open for anything and most anything suggested to you will help.  Then there’s the I’m fast stage and  no matter what anyone suggests it won’t help you because your fast and know your fast.  Then if you make it through the ‘I’m fast’ stage without terrible injury or running out of money, you start to become a journeyman and you concentrate on refining your race craft.  But the funny thing I’ve noticed is along the way you first started out wanting to and hoping to talk to every and anyone about racing, then you clammed up knowing it all and finally as a journeyman your open again looking for any and all input to refine your race craft.  I’ve seen many racers grow and become skilled in their craft.  I don’t know you  Tim or who ever may be reading on here, you can fit yourself in where ever you like and you can fit me in where ever you like.  But in the end were all just feeding our addiction and love of racing in all it’s aspects.  Let’s talk about stuff and not about each other.  Tell me where I’m wrong so I can learn if I can change my hard set head, but lets not just look to show who’s the most ignorant.  If there needs to be a winner on ignorance to move on, I’ll take first place and then lets get on to the next race.

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  • #14521

    Paul Kish
    Participant

    <div class=”d4p-bbp-quote-title”>Rodney Ebersole wrote:</div>
    Paul, With either seat the top point of the pyramid of traction control is the seat/driver. The bottom is the tires contact points. The taller the pyramid is will increase the amount of vertical force upon the contact points when trying to change direction. A lay down seat set up would need narrower and shorter contact points in order to try and equal the vertical force that a sit up seat would have. At some point in width and length decreases it would not be able to produce as much vertical force upon the tires. Horizontal forces and dirt reduce grip .

    I think I see exactly what your explaining.  I’m not disagreeing with any of it.  I’m going to try to include what you explained and bring it into my way of seeing its application.  I’m trying to look at thing by shaping the triangle to how I choose to use the tires.  … it’s tough to explain…  If my goal is to make sure I get enough grip out of the outside leg of the triangle to use it’s contact point to hold me in, then I’m mainly interested in the height of the triangle.  And I’m only concerned in how the height alters my ability to use the outside leg.  The inside leg will do what it will do when addressing the use of the outside leg.  All I expect and need to get out of the inside leg is minimal interference with the functioning outside leg.  When we need to use the other leg, it will then be acting the same as the outside leg does now.  We will just be shifting and dealing with it in reverse.  Simple cut and dry and I agree it works.

    Does that sound ok?

    All I’m suggesting is instead of looking at the inside leg as functioning to give us minimal interference with the operation of the outside leg, lets look at what else the minimal interference is maybe doing for us and enhance it.  I’m suggesting to look at the minimal interference of the inside leg of the triangle and having a function.  If your slowing down anyway isn’t the inside leg also helping to hold the back end in.  I’m suggesting to enhance the use of the inside leg while slowing down and cause the load to be split, as much as possible, between the two rear tires.  And then when you apply hp again, you can better control the introduction of the hp, because you previously have included being able to control slip at the inside leg.   It’s the outward direction of force you can use to give you more control over slip at the inside leg.

    On a side note controlling slip at the inside rear is not all about gaining an additional tool to control slip.  It’s also about recognizing your also moving along the track while all this control is taking place.  Sometimes to fix a problem or gain a need, it’s simply a matter of preventing something from happening for an instant and your at a new place on the track where the problem no longer can occur.

    I’d better stop for now and see what comes back.

    Sometimes when things come back up it leaves a sour taste in your mouth. … :)   just more dry humor for my own benefit and fun

    Brake, Insert 'arc', Turn, Accelerate

  • #14529

    Paul Kish
    Participant

    Do you have any experience with regional or national level sprint racing Paul?

     

    Only regional level and very little.  And at that time I also know I had very little knowledge of anything about how stuff works.  I then not even knowing, relied only on driver skill and seat time, monkey see monkey do and having and engine as good as if not better then anyone else.

    And our results were only mediocre too.

    On a side note, I strongly feel except for the top of the ladder, how far you get up the ladder is a matter of attendance as much as it is skill and knowledge. … :)

     

    Thank you for the courteous reply and I hope my reply was the same.

     

    paul

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  • #14532

    Rob Kozakowski
    Participant

    I agree with TJ that in very limited situations, Paul’s theory might work.  With real hard tires that don’t provide any “side-bite”, making the rear rotate by sliding, rather than unloading the inside tire can work.

    The trouble is that with the tires we run in 99% of the applications, and with the design of “Euro” sprint karts, we have to unload the inside rear to make a kart work as designed.

    We could probably work around the design of karts by moving the weight bias so far forward and bumping tire pressures so high that the rear might slide again, rather than needing to unload the inside rear.  Trouble is by doing this, you’re creating all kinds of other handling problems that you’ll end up slower than setting the kart up the way it is designed to work.

    While you want to ignore stagger, you can’t ignore its impact on LTO karts.  It’s like ignoring the tires and the kart design we use in sprint karts.  It’s all part of the complete package.

  • #14536

    Greg Wright
    Participant

    Gee Paul, with all due respect I have to ask why you continue to pursue your theories in this and the “Slow in, Slow out” thread when by your admission you do not race and also own up to the fact that in a few attempts you were’t very good at it.

       Somehow you seem to want to impress us with the depth of your knowledge and write long treatises on chassis setup and driving styles. You don’t have the chops to back it up!! Why do you do this to yourself?

     

    Greg Wright
    Rapid Racing Inc.
    Vintage B-Stock Pilot
    "When in doubt Gas it, It won't help but it ends the suspense."

  • #14547

    Paul Kish
    Participant

    Thank you all for the replies. I am not suggesting a need to cause the inside rear to slide.

    Someone brought into this how using the inside rear more will likely be balanced with creating a potential to over steer. I think I see the thought process to bring the two together. I can relate forcing the inside rear to do something in addition to what it would normally do, to needing more input from the fronts. And more input from the fronts would put them closer to not having sufficient grip and over steer to compensate. But I’m not suggesting to force the issue with anything. It is going to take a certain amount of effort to turn an outside rear which is loaded up heavily. I don’t think anyone will argue with me on that.

    I’d better stop and ask a general question.

    Does anyone think it may be possible for the fronts to turn the back tires with less effort, when the inside rear is partially engaged with the track, instead of having just the outside rear on the track? In other words is it easier for the fronts to turn the back of the kart when there’s one large slip angle engaged with the track, over two.

    Brake, Insert 'arc', Turn, Accelerate

  • #14642

    James McMahon
    Participant

    Paul I’ve only glossed over this thread, but will say this.. …
    Something to keep in mind is that at the higher level events, the grip level is such that there is actually an adhesive effect between the tires and track. They are literally “stuck” together in a manner that makes merely unloading much less effective than you would expect with the “frictional” traction you deal with at a local event.

  • #14658

    TJ Koyen
    Moderator

    Paul,

    But what about the power sap and bogging you get from dragging the inside rear wheel? You keep talking about how you waste less horsepower with two slip angles, but you seem to kind of being ignoring the ill effects of dragging that inside rear tire.

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  • #14661

    Paul Kish
    Participant

    I’m not ignoring it.  I’m not saying put the thing on the ground and make it slip.  I know you can’t do that.

    I guess I’m arguing something already answered when I asked the question about just using the outside rear over, also using the inside rear a little.  You all have already answered me saying it’s not needed, it’s a waist of time and it will be slower.  And there’s already been confirmation you all who have answered are fast, good drivers and experienced.

     

    So far I have not seen any understanding of what I’m proposing in any reply.  I don’t think the inability to understand is all in my explaining.  I think some of the inability to not understand is a lot about, ya just don’t do it that way, it won’t work and karts just are not made that way.

    Why the restrictions on laying a seat down?  I think it’s purely political and based on how it might change how ‘things have always been done’ and potentially hurt profits.  I don’t think it has anything at all to do with speed.

    If your totally convinced I’m wrong, then don’t reply and let me babble on.  I’m pretty stuck in my ways, but eventually I’ll get tired of talking to myself.  I’m not hurting standard practices, teach them they work and they’ll keep working so long as the status quo is kept. …

     

    paul

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  • #14675

    Paul Kish
    Participant

    The best way to get rid of me is to just ignore my worthless posts and I’ll just fade away.

    Thank you all though, I have learned from you.

    Brake, Insert 'arc', Turn, Accelerate

  • #14714

    Gary Lawson
    Participant

    Why the restrictions on laying a seat down?  I think it’s purely political and based on how it might change how ‘things have always been done’ and potentially hurt profits.  I don’t think it has anything at all to do with speed.

    Paul,

    There is a lot of truth to this statement. Most issues came from racers/industry people complaining and not wanting to change or put effort into testing. Much easier to try to just get rid of people and change rules to exclude different things. Anyway, doesn’t matter at this point anymore.

    To the topic of having a lower CG to lessen transfer and try to slip the inside instead of lifting it… although I appreciate and do attempt to try to understand a lot of the theory behind tuning/setup I will give you some of my feedback from my on track testing. The laydown seat is going to make less grip even if the inside rear may be engage longer throughout the corner. Spreading the load more evenly between the tires doesn’t make up for the lessened grip from the lack of load on the outside rear. The laydown seat is more advantageous when it is hot or you can use a soft tire. Cold weather and hard tires just doesn’t make enough grip. The rear lays too flat and it wants to push. Putting caster in to fix the push just causes the kart to oversteer from lack of wt transfer. Not being able to add seat stays to the seat also makes this issue more prevalent.

    I believe the laydown style seat should be legal because it gives bigger drivers like me the opportunity to lower the center of gravity to similar to that of a smaller driver. I’m not looking for an advantage, just to be able to be equal. At a national track in the middle of the summer where the rubber lays down a bigger driver doesn’t have a chance against a smaller driver of equal talent. Me in my laydown seat would probably have a higher CG than 120 lb TJ with all his lead mounted low on the seat (not to pick on you TJ). As much of a pain as it is to lift his kart with all that lead (unless you have a great Kartlift), he can manipulate how the kart works by moving lead up and down on the seat. Sorry to go on a little tangent but it was along the same lines of the topic. Anyway, I have my newly designed seat that has gotten  plenty of complaints and scrutinizing already.  No one likes losing.

    I’ll try to answer a few of your questions if you have them, Paul.

     

  • #14731

    Mark Dismore Jr.
    Participant

    It must be the off season.

  • #14817

    russ Jolly
    Participant

    Wickedly confused.

    Arn’t we supposed to have inside rear slip so that the outside rear is able to turn? As paul was saying tires generally want to go in a straight line even more so when they are connected by a solid axle. So it seems to me at least we would need to loosen the inside rear to turn the outside quicker.

    That being said I remember my 5.5 briggs days where we all had g-man full body plastics and steering faring with lay-down or offset seats. Most of the time was because our track had more lefts then rights and also the aero draft effect.

  • #14834

    Jimmy McNeil
    Participant

    Paul, up till a couple years ago they had a open class, it was called G1. You could run a high comp, electronic ignition, 50hp moto engine. People didn’t support it and it went away.

    If you opened up the rules for the upcoming supernats, not a single person would run a lay down seat. If someone showed up with one, they would be in the back.

  • #14848

    Michael Boone
    Participant

    “If someone showed up with one, they would be in the back.” I’ll bet there are more then just a few racers reading on here that are saying, hummmm.. maybe? That’s why there racers. Thank you for the reply, I hope my response was not just arguing. paul

     

    I would have to say Paul you’re showing a little ignorance on this subject with that comment.

    MB

     

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  • #14852

    Greg Wright
    Participant

    “If someone showed up with one, they would be in the back.”

     

     

    I’ll bet there are more then just a few racers reading on here that are saying, hummmm.. maybe? That’s why there racers.

    I’ll take that bet, not happening.

    Greg Wright
    Rapid Racing Inc.
    Vintage B-Stock Pilot
    "When in doubt Gas it, It won't help but it ends the suspense."

    • #14883

      Paul Kish
      Participant

      Greg, I play a lot of on line poker and sometimes no matter how bad you want to win and no matter how hard Greed is poking you in the back, your going to loose and you know it.

      Yep, your bet is a winner and I know it.

      But I’m trying to show what I think is a possibility, even  though it ain’t going to happen.

      Brake, Insert 'arc', Turn, Accelerate

  • #14853

    TJ Koyen
    Moderator

    The only way to end this debate is if someone proves it.

    Until the guy who wins SuperNats is running a laydown seat and using Paul’s tuning/driving methods, it would be hard to sway my opinion on this matter.

    Driver/Coach/Wrench : Innovative Performance/Exprit
    Owner : Oktane Visual - www.oktanevisual.com
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  • #14885

    TJ Koyen
    Moderator

    I appreciate the compliments on my driving Paul. I’ve spent a lot of time reading and trying to apply things with driving and tuning over the past 11 years of racing.

    If we’re going to discuss about driving dynamics, we’d have to start a different topic because there’s a lot more that goes into it other than what line you’re taking. In sprint karting we have to worry about how much we are loading the outside rear and keeping the inside rear unloaded, working with steering inputs as well as throttle and brake modulation.

    Driver/Coach/Wrench : Innovative Performance/Exprit
    Owner : Oktane Visual - www.oktanevisual.com
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  • #14886

    Paul Kish
    Participant

    And thank you Sir for the kind reply.

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  • #14904

    Matt Dixon
    Participant

    This is all a joke, right?

    94y

  • #14909

    Paul Kish
    Participant

    I’m done, I’m taking my BS and going home.

    Brake, Insert 'arc', Turn, Accelerate

  • #15004

    rich hibbs
    Participant

    Couple Points

    Tires are not rigid and flex, this helps turning as the contact patch deforms to allow the change in direction.

    We have a term for what Paul is describing.  FLAT SLIDE and in sprint karting not desirable.

    TRACTION CIRCLE.  A tire can only give you 100% of one thing.  You can only ask a tire to give you 100% acceleration, 100% deceleration, 100% steering.  Once you ask for it to turn and slow or accelerated you will only get a reduction in overall performance.

    Tire Friction.  Once a tire advances over the threshold of 100% performance it starts to slide.  To stop the slide you can go back to 100% and still be unable to achieve friction. To have grip you must go well beyond 100% to somewhere in the area of 85% to allow the tire to again build friction and grip.

    So therefore a setup set to allow the rear tires to slide is a reduction of overall performance of the tire and will cause a reduction in deceleration and acceleration available from the tire.

    Not to mention I sure as hell don’t want to be in a laydown position trying to stop my body from going forward when braking with a kart with full brake system, or dealing with the turn in forces, or even better the curb hoping.

  • #15152

    Scot Smith
    Participant

    Gary Lawson,  I sent you a PM

  • #14494

    Paul Kish
    Participant

    Thank you all for the replies.  I’ve wondered why so many situp high drivers.

    The lay down seat should in all sprint karting classes be faster.  It’s because the lay down seat allows for increased use of the inside rear tire.  And it is fact the same grip distributed across two rear tires will go around the track more efficiently or ‘freer’, then with increased unloading of the inside tire and more use of the outside tire.  Thank you for the input to my question.  I was wondering why so many sprint kart drivers still sit up so tall.  In addition a seat more laid down also gives an aero advantage.

     

    paul

    Brake, Insert 'arc', Turn, Accelerate

  • #14500

    TJ Koyen
    Moderator

    Paul wrote:Thank you all for the replies. I’ve wondered why so many situp high drivers.

    The lay down seat should in all sprint karting classes be faster. It’s because the lay down seat allows for increased use of the inside rear tire. And it is fact the same grip distributed across two rear tires will go around the track more efficiently or ‘freer’, then with increased unloading of the inside tire and more use of the outside tire. Thank you for the input to my question. I was wondering why so many sprint kart drivers still sit up so tall. In addition a seat more laid down also gives an aero advantage.

    paul

    Here we go…

    Care to explain why using the inside rear tire is faster Paul? You’re pretty set on that idea, you brought it up quite a bit in the driving topic. And the fact that it goes against every basic principle of sprint kart tuning makes me interested in what you have to say.

    Aero advantage is pretty minimal in sprint karting as well.

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  • #14501

    Paul Kish
    Participant

    I shouldn’t have to explain but because you do not have a differential you “MUST” unload or slip the inside rear.

     

    … before I go on, do we agree with that one point?

     

    I can’t go on if that is not understood.

     

    ___________________

    I guess there is one other thing we have to agree on before I can convince you I’m correct.

     

    If you take a tire, any tire and roll it do you agree it will want to roll straight?  (I know you can throw in a bunch of stuff that can make it want to not roll straight, but for all practical purposes, roll a tire and it will want to roll straight.

     

    Can we agree on that?

     

    ___________________

     

    This next one may be a bit tougher for you to want to agree with.  But from what I read so far of your words you will not try to dodge it.

    The tire which is rolling straight, don’t you have to add input to make it roll in a direction other then straight?

    I think you will say yes.

    And what if you added weight to it, won’t it take more input to make it roll in a direction other then straight?

    I think you will… maybe reluctantly but I do think you will say yes.

     

    I think you already know what happens if you make a tire roll in a direction other then straight.  Because there is no need to play 20 questions I’ll answer.  A slip angle will be created.  … not think about it…

    To conserve energy and put the hp you have into going forward, would you want to turn one tire with a big slip angle or two with smaller slip angles?  It’s tough to say two ain’t it?  But you know you do feel two smaller slip angle will be easier to turn.  In fact they are.  Next I’m sure your going to want me to quote verse, rime and reason why two small slip angles will be easier to create then one large one.  … I can’t do that.  All I can do is say from all that I’ve ever seen LTO racing, unless you have gobs of hp able to take advantage of dumping weight on the outside rear, it’s faster to split the split angles.  If what your racing does have all the hp you need to put the hp to the outside rear and go, assuming the outside rear has all the grip you need, you will not agree with me.  But if you are at the limit of your hp, it’s faster to split the slip angles.  In LTO racing when you have the outside rear so heavily weighted it just wants to roll straight too much, we call it right rear tight or … Outside rear tight.

     

    If your on a shifter you may not be able to see it.  But if your on a lower hp can or brigs, it will show itself to you.

     

    … what follows is what’s left and what’s left is all about forces out on the track.  It’s how lowering the seat changes how you use forces to be able to free up the tires and split the slip angle.

    I think I did ok explaining it, but time will tell.

     

    ______________________

     

    edit:  If your wondering why laydown seats can even be competitive, what I just explained above or at least tried to explain IS why.  Yes I understand the higher CG and how it helps leverage the chassis, but…  think about it… doesn’t the higher CG also create a longer lever and don’t longer levers work slower?  And then to make that longer lever work as needed, don’t you have to then round up extra effort to make the long lever work as FAST as needed?  Now… shorten the lever by dropping down the driver.  All of a sudden you also have a shorter lever to operate.  … hummmm… it’s a win win situation, ain’t it?

     

    —————-

     

    thanks for the reply, been fun writing, I’ll look back in tomorrow am unless I head off to a track out east.

    Brake, Insert 'arc', Turn, Accelerate

  • #14502

    Mike Clark
    Participant
  • #14503

    Mike Clark
    Participant

    Paul,

    Already it seems you are saying use the inside but lift or slip the inside. That sounds like a contradiction.

     

  • #14504

    Jimmy McNeil
    Participant

    “The lay down seat should in all sprint karting classes be faster”

    Its just the opposite. Go to a road race and watch the laydown karts crawl through the corners compared to the “sit up high” drivers.

    “I shouldn’t have to explain but because you do not have a differential you “MUST” unload or slip the inside rear.”

    “And it is fact the same grip distributed across two rear tires will go around the track more efficiently or ‘freer’, then with increased unloading of the inside tire and more use of the outside tire.”

    You kind of answered your own question. You are correct, you must unload/slip the inside rear tire. If you ran a laydown style seat that increased the weight on the inside rear, the kart wouldn’t rotate as well. Plus, with the laydown seat you would decrease the weight transferred to the outside tires through the corner resulting in less grip/slower corner speed.

  • #14505

    Paul Kish
    Participant

    <div class=”d4p-bbp-quote-title”>Mike Clark wrote:</div>
    Paul, Already it seems you are saying use the inside but lift or slip the inside. That sounds like a contradiction.

    I expected not your specific reply but something similar.  And while I was writing I anticipated it.  It’s not about not needing to lift, unload or slip the inside rear, that is needed, a must and just the way it is and is not going to go away.  It’s about how you use the unloaded inside rear and changing the requirements of how much you unload the inside rear.  Sure, you got to unload it enough but how much is enough will change, when you drop down the seat.

    You will be taking some of the forces available to you to leverage the chassis to unload the inside rear and use them to shove the inside rear outward.  The combined shoving and leveraging will require less effort to free the inside rear then just leveraging it up, using the outside rear as the fulcrum point.

    You absolutely do NOT have a need to unload or lift the inside rear tire.  You have the need to free up or slip the inside rear, in fact if you can cause it to slip as needed it never even needs to leave the track.  There is a big difference.

    It’s also going to make a difference when you need to load the inside rear to accelerate.  You already know load it too soon and your pig out of the corner.  If  you slip it and then ease it back into the track, you will have more control for using it again then if you lift it and bang it back down.  … yeah I exaggerated to make a point, but the idea is there and sound.

     

    edit:  I know sometimes you see karts in turns where the inside rear never leaves the track.  Is it always bad when the inside rear does not leave the track?

    I think not.  If your slowing down anyway or on the power maintaining your speed and you have the power to do it, there’s may be no advantage to completely unloading the inside rear.  I don’t know but I suspect someone may get on here and say … so and so is fast and his inside rear never seems to leave the track… or not because it’s just something I suspect.

    Brake, Insert 'arc', Turn, Accelerate

  • #14525

    TJ Koyen
    Moderator

    Let me try and understand this in a more simplified way:

    You absolutely do NOT have a need to unload or lift the inside rear tire.  You have the need to free up or slip the inside rear, in fact if you can cause it to slip as needed it never even needs to leave the track.  There is a big difference.

    So I think, correct me if I’m wrong, Paul is stating that you can have a laydown seat, induce a fraction of amount of oversteer and slide the rear ever so slightly to unload the inside tire, and end up with slightly more grip from two rear tires rather than relying on just the outside tire to plant and use all of it’s grip. Therefore having more grip and being able to corner faster. Yes?

    If this is indeed correct, I can tell you from experience that this might be somewhat of a valid theory on a slick track or on hard tires, but completely goes out the window when any form of grip goes down.

    In club racing with hard tires and slick tracks, it’s pretty common (or at least this is what we did when we raced club stuff) to go for a slide oversteer condition to free the rear up and get the inside rear to slip, rather than trying to force the kart to lift and rotate. It was just much easier to get the kart to consistently oversteer slightly. And it worked, we were quick and won championships locally.

    Slap on any other tire that is remotely softer and race on any track that has a bit more grip and it becomes next to impossible to apply that same theory. The kart actually has to work like it was designed at this point, and lift the inside rear and dig in on the outside rear and rotate.

    I don’t think it’s possible to compare the tuning characteristics and theories of LTO racing with sprint racing. Every possible variable is different; tires, chassis design, seats, wheels, driving style, track style, grip levels… We never have a condition of “outside rear tight” as you’ve said. That doesn’t happen in sprint karting. If you’re lifting the inside rear, then your kart is turning. Do you have any experience with regional or national level sprint racing Paul?

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  • #14527

    Paul Kish
    Participant

    .

    Brake, Insert 'arc', Turn, Accelerate

  • #14544

    Paul Kish
    Participant

    “snip>why(do) you continue to pursue your theories in this and the “Slow in, Slow out” thread<snip”

    Because I enjoy thinking about how race vehicles interact with the track through their tires and enjoy writing my thoughts down while thinking about stuff.  I’m not trying to impress anyone and I think neither are you.  I just went back and read some on the ‘other’ thread and we are at different ends of the earth about seeing how stuff works.  I see that I did challenge you with some of what I wrote on the other thread and I’m sorry I did it.  I won’t be doing it again.

     

    Brake, Insert 'arc', Turn, Accelerate

  • #14564

    Tim Pappas
    Participant

    <div class=”d4p-bbp-quote-title”>Paul wrote:</div>
    Does anyone think it may be possible for the fronts to turn the back tires with less effort, when the inside rear is partially engaged with the track, instead of having just the outside rear on the track?

    <hr />

    <div class=”bbp-reply-signature”>brake, insert ‘arc’, turn, accelerate. … :)</div>
    <div class=”bbp-reply-signature”></div>
    <div class=”bbp-reply-signature”>No.  Current chassis’ will be faster on a sprint track if they pick up the inside rear tire.  If the inside rear is in contact with the track on entry to a tight 180 degree turn it will not be as fast.  That’s how current chassis are designed to work and there are times we raise the seat to make it happen.  That’s my real life experience on real life tracks.

    There are exceptions.  A slick track and hard tires like TJ said is one and Road Racing is another.  On a full size road coarse the corners are so much  larger and the speeds are so fast that it is quicker to lay the seat down to the limit of the rules for sit up karts for aero and let the rear work more as I think you are describing.  Again, just my experience.

    It seems to me that you are just making a long winded argument saying that it may be faster to slightly slide the rear to rotate it than picking up the inside tire.  You are posing the question to people who have experience and knowledge with chassis set up and when they debunk your theory based on real testing and racing, you argue.

    It’s great that  you are passionate about karting and racing and want to discuss it, but verbally jousting with experienced guys like TJ and Greg who have proven their chassis knowledge doesn’t prove your point. So I guess I’m not sure what you are trying to prove other than arguing because unless you test your theories, they are just that.</div>
    <div class=”bbp-reply-signature”></div>
    <div class=”bbp-reply-signature”></div>

  • #14567

    TJ Koyen
    Moderator

    Paul wrote:
    Does anyone think it may be possible for the fronts to turn the back tires with less effort, when the inside rear is partially engaged with the track, instead of having just the outside rear on the track? In other words is it easier for the fronts to turn the back of the kart when there’s one large slip angle engaged with the track, over two.

    The penalty for dragging the inside rear through the corner FAR outweighs any potential advantage of slipping two tires rear tires rather than one.

    There’s a reason every sprint kart is designed to lift the inside rear and there’s a reason the factory teams themselves follow the same tuning goal we all follow: get lift, get rotation. This is what works best.

    You’re inventing a problem that doesn’t exist. The idea of “outside rear tight” where the outside rear doesn’t want to rotate because of load, doesn’t exist in sprint karting. If you have too much load on the outside tire, it slips and loses traction and sets the inside rear down.

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  • #14656

    Paul Kish
    Participant

    Below I’m posting a post which is/was a works in progress.  I didn’t know how to end the reply and was going to add something later, but lazy me just said … post it… and I did. … :)

    __________________

    Thank you for the replies and understanding or at least trying to understand me.

    I’m not trying to joust with anyone. I’m trying to give something new. If I just by chance happen to be correct with what I’m trying to convey, how often does something new come along? I hope my persistence doesn’t come to the pain in the butt stage. I’ve been doing this for some time now just as those spoken so highly about have been doing this for a long time. I truly do not feel my thoughts about what I’m trying to show or give are incorrect. It’s a matter of seeing, perceiving and recognizing another’s idea if the idea is going to spread. I see others trying, but I do not see others seeing what I’m proposing.

    trying to move on without arguing or jousting with anyone

    I do understand the reply below. I’m not arguing with it because it is 100% correct. It is not about what I’m suggesting. I guess what I’m trying to show is a hey if you do this and fit what your doing into these parameters, you might be able to go faster through a turn.

    “The idea of “outside rear tight” where the outside rear doesn’t want to rotate because of load, doesn’t exist in sprint karting. If you have too much load on the outside tire, it slips and loses traction and sets the inside rear down.”

    I guess one of my basic philosophies it to run your tires as efficiently as possible. With that in mind this particular idea is not about over taxing your tires. It’s not about something which would cause the outside rear to slip. Just the opposite, it’s about an idea where you can use your rear tires more efficiently. Efficiency to me, especially when you have limited hp, means you can apply more of your limited hp to go forward, because you use less to unstick a tire.

    I think the higher you get up the who’s good tree and the higher level of racing tree, who beats who is most often decided by who can get through a turn skuffing off the least speed. The higher the level of racing gets and the closer the competitors get, the more important it to maintain momentum.

    What I’m offering if you look back at it again is a possible way to negotiate a turn at a lower level of total grip. Do that and you can maintain a little more momentum and you can apply a little more hp. I not at all thinking about or considering a situation where you are going to exceed available grip. It’s a way of using less over all grip then what is available. If there is unlimited grip, who uses the least to do the same thing will go the quickest.

    I’m not in suggesting the outside rear does not want to rotate. It’s going to rotate enough to release it continually from the track. Let me say the same thing except use twist instead of rotate. Since were turning the outside rear in a turn it’s also when in contact being twisted. So I’ll say instead, it’s going to twist enough to release it continually from the track. The amount of sticky is still going to be there. But what I’m proposing is the combined amount of twisting and what it takes to release from the track, will be less if you split the twist and release between two tires over just one. It’s all also a matter of the degree which you can do it. I’m not saying push both tires into the track and they will release easier, that’s not good. I’m suggesting lowering the seat in a high grip situation, to help free up the rear tires by directing some force more outward.

    When you have unlimited grip there are only a few ways to over come it and prevent waisting hp. You alter the ability of the tires themselves to grip, you increase speed, you change how you aim weight at the tires and… I’m proposing you do something to limit the slip angle created at the outside rear tire, by using the inside rear a little more.  Lowering the cg is what is going to allow you to use it a little more.  How much is ‘some’? As much as you can without using too much. Keep in your picture when thinking about it, that your slowing down anyway or… inserting an ‘arc’ etc? … sorry :)

    added:  Use the inside rear too much and you already know the result.  You’ll be a pig when trying to initiate acceleration.

    Brake, Insert 'arc', Turn, Accelerate

  • #14674

    Paul Kish
    Participant

    I’ve been doing this a few years now too. What brought sprint karts into my LTO thoughts was one Sunday I think three years ago not when there was not dirt racing and I went to Thompson sprint track, south east of the Cleveland area. There were quit a few gold plates there that day and all except one were standard looking sit up karts, Top Karts or what ever. There was also one LTO lay down looking kart I first thought was an oval kart. The young man had his seat laid back and his kart was just different from the rest. hummmm was all I said and couldn’t wait to see the kart out on the track. Well, he kicked butt. Then I instantly started thinking about how he had to be using his inside rear. Well it’s a few years later, the site I usually waist folks time on and have fun writing crashed, and I wandered back here.

     

    I thought I had something to offer, so I gave it a shot.

     

    I’ve talked about this relating it to a couple of sprint kart racer I’ve know for a lot of years, at two different occasions and probably two different years at Beaver Run. On both occasions we did come to understand each other about it. Though discussed in different terms, we did end up with a mind set about it. “It” is, what I’m trying to convey on here.

     

    I think I’d better stop again.

     

    paul

    Brake, Insert 'arc', Turn, Accelerate

  • #14716

    Paul Kish
    Participant

    No Gary I have no questions and pretty much understand what you said.  Thanks for the reply.

    _____________________

     

    edit:  Gary I intentionally took the easy way out with my reply above and threw you alone too the wolves.

     

    I’m not all that dumb on this internet stuff and didn’t want to just leave you out there by yourself.  So I’m adding this to say, I not only understand what you wrote, I think your 100% correct.

    By the way you’ve accomplished more in karting then I could ever dream of and I feel humbled you even commented.

    I do understand where your coming from when you explain how hard it is to compete with ‘horse jockeys’.  I’m not trying to be rude when I use the words ‘horse jockeys’, it’s just the way it is trying to compete with smaller folks in racing.

    Just to add in something which I think relates to ‘grip’, the track record I so proudly elude to as a small accomplishment, was with an aluminum axle in briggs boxstock senior medium, which is also out side the box.

    And when we shifted to UAS racing we still used an aluminum axle.  Yes we had other mechanical advantages which are now the norm today, because of what WE did, but ‘aluminum axle’?  It goes very hard against the grain of applying weight to the outside rear and unloading the inside rear.  Yes in the case of UAS, it’s LTO racing and stagger should be instantly thought of being able to make it possible.  But the truth of the matter is we did it with just a 1/4 inch of stagger and did it by “VERY FINE TUNING” the unloading of the inside rear.  So Gary and who else may want to listen, I do understand both worlds.

     

    paul

     

     

     

     

     

     

    Brake, Insert 'arc', Turn, Accelerate

  • #14828

    Paul Kish
    Participant

    “So it seems to me at least we would need to loosen the inside rear to turn the outside quicker.”

     

    All my bull is ONLY suggesting a specific thing to look at about how the inside rear is ‘loosened’.

    I’m suggesting altering ‘how’ some of the effort which is needed to loosen the inside rear might be changed or applied to unload the inside rear from a slightly different direction.

    It doesn’t matter how you lift or unload the inside rear, you pretty much can’t lift the inside rear without “FIRST” being in the process of turning.

    If your already turning when the inside rear is unloaded, which you are or you couldn’t unload it in the first place, there is already a twist put into the tire.  If you control how forces are loading the inside rear tire, you can also somewhat control how much twisting is needed before the tire starts to slip or you can think about it as starting to unload.  If you can reduce the amount of twist needed before the inside rear unloads as needed, then you can shift a little weight from the outside rear to the inside rear.

    You’ll be able to then get through the corner with less combined slip angle and less precious momentum taken away, everyone needs to conserve.  And when hp is applied, it can be applied sooner because re-introducing the inside rear to the track will be delayed, because of how you altered the ability to twist the tire.

    Nothing about this will be dramatic.  It’s just a slight thing which may save a fraction of a tenth somewhere around the track.  But as I like to say, “How much is a (fraction of a) tenth worth?”.

    Without going back and finding it, someone commented on how in different classes it has been demonstrated that a more laid down configuration can be surprisingly competitive.  I’m adding in all classes they cannot only be competitive but superior if allowed to be pursued, because of what I’m trying to explain.  The powers to be have seen it and to keep the status quo and support their pocket books, over a normal racers normal dream and pursuit to go fast, rules are being put in place.

     

    Don’t read below the line unless you are willing to do so with an open mind and the understanding I’m not knocking anything, just ranting about what I’d like to see.

    _____________________

     

     

    I’m not knocking any kind of racing, but it saddens me there is no ‘open’ racing anymore with karts and  cars.

    Hey those who are good will be good and win no matter what kind of speck, strictly controlled racing there doing.  Common now there’s nothing wrong with it but, yammaha can, pipe, tag, etc., it’s all just high dollar, you got to buy into my club racing, with very limited innovation.  I see no difference between yammi can racing, tag racing or briggs racing.  It’s all just speck racing with only limited difference and limited hp.  The only reason to limit what can be done with the seat is for control and profit.

    The sprint kart powers to be who are hooked up with this manufacture or that manufacture and feed off of them, would all shake in there boots if a UAS type rules brand of open innovative kart racing hit the lefty  righty ranks.

    Common now, wouldn’t you all like to take your tony karts, top karts or what ever is popular now and throw 50+ hp on them and weight them out so they can compete and beat super karts?  Not knowing much about super karts, I just assume there the fast stuff.

    Wouldn’t ya like to sit on total rocket ships and race what your mind can dream about?  Yeah, there would still be limits, but only limits to the kind of weapon your sitting on and not about how much your willing to sit your butt on ‘fast’. … :)

    Brake, Insert 'arc', Turn, Accelerate

  • #14844

    Paul Kish
    Participant

    “If someone showed up with one, they would be in the back.”

     

    I’ll bet there are more then just a few racers reading on here that are saying, hummmm.. maybe?  That’s why there racers.

     

    Thank you for the reply, I hope my response was not just arguing.

     

    paul

     

     

    Brake, Insert 'arc', Turn, Accelerate

  • #14880

    Paul Kish
    Participant

    “I would have to say Paul you’re showing a little ignorance on this subject with that comment.

    MB”

     

    Michael, I am totally ignorant about a lot of things you all do and the equipment you use sprint racing.

    I am not totally ignorant about what it takes to get around a turn, what determines how available hp needs to be applied, per available grip and how tires need to be used to do it efficiently.  I’m not about this is how we do it.  I’m about this is what needs done and understanding different things being raced have different abilities to do what needs done.

    If I have a dream in all this it’s to be able to be able to define what needs done.

     

    paul

     

    and I’m about being wrong on most stuff

    Brake, Insert 'arc', Turn, Accelerate

  • #14882

    Paul Kish
    Participant

    TJ:  I don’t think there’s much of a chance it will ever happen.  It won’t happen because nobody will let it happen and there will not likely be a grass roots effort strong enough for it to happen.  And to say what I just said, it has to also be possible.  Some things are just impossible huh? … :)

     

    paul

     

    ps TJ:  If it’s not proper or you don’t like me addressing you as TJ, please say so and I’ll change my ways.  The PS is about your driving.  I watched just one ‘on kart’ video you posted and I was very impressed.  You caught karts not because your kart was faster, you caught them because others lines were not efficient and you drove a better line.  You were on high grip asphalt but I may as well been watching a skilled driver on slick dirt, it was cool.  I’ll not comment on your driving line and why I think it was great, I’ll comment on the line of those you were able to catch.  And from that I figure or hope you’ll know exactly what I’m talking about.  I think I was watching a TAG race video, where if you had a decent engine it would be no better or worse then anyone else.  I have another ‘Rule #1’.  The rule is the only reason to round out a turn is if it allows you to maintain momentum or you have enough available hp that you can gain an advantage accelerating over the increased distance.  The net of it is the karts I watched you catch were slow, because they ran a rounded line trying to be smooooooth which extended their distance traveled.  And they did not have the hp available to take advantage of the additional distance traveled.  I wasn’t going to comment on what you did but if you were on an oval it would sort of relate it to diamonding off a turn.  You effectively reduced the amount of time your spent turning and increased the amount of time spent going in a more straight direction.  What I also noticed is when doing it instead of killing a lot of speed diamonding off the turn, … :) your turn to do it was more of an … … you really don’t want me to say that word do you… :) …   an … ‘arc’ ?

    paul

    Impressive and fun to watch the video.  Now if I can just get you to quit transferring so much hp and acceleration so often, to the kart ahead of you… :)

    Hope what I wrote was fun to read and didn’t get you mad.  I think it’s totally wrong to race with the goal of having fun, but I think it’s ok to write and BS with the goal of having fun and to get or give an occasional smile.

    Brake, Insert 'arc', Turn, Accelerate

  • #14888

    Paul Kish
    Participant

    TJ wrote:

    “If we’re going to discuss about driving dynamics, we’d have to start a different topic because there’s a lot more that goes into it other than what line you’re taking. In sprint karting we have to worry about how much we are loading the outside rear and keeping the inside rear unloaded, working with steering inputs as well as throttle and brake modulation.”

    Let’s do it. … :)  I don’t mind hijacking my own thread.

    I’ll go first and relate it to what I posted on your driving.  Let’s see if were maybe on the same page.  Naturally I’m going to bring some of my way of seeing things in too.  But if we both learn to see the same thing but now from two different directions, it can’t be all bad can it?

    Let’s get back to your turn in which gained you so much ground on your competitors.  And to put us closer to being on the same page and to help show I maybe do understand a little about unloading the inside rear; lets also bring in what you explained about the need to control the unloaded inside rear.

    Notice out of courtesy I wrote unloaded inside rear instead of writing unloading of the inside rear.  Same church, just different pew. … :)

    To bring our thoughts together I have to present something else and hope you agree with it.  Turn in and how you actually perform your turn in, is the number one thing which will determine your exit line.

    I’ll expand on that a little and try to make it more straight forward.  The sharper your turn in, the sooner or lower in the corner you will locate your exit.  The more you round out the actual initial effort of turn in, the later or farther out on the track you will exit.

    :) Again out of courtesy I used the word round in place of arc.  Actually though ‘arc’ would not really be the appropriate word to use in this case.  Because your exit is going to need to be as straight as you can go, as soon as practical.

    If your with me so far, lets now consider and define what is practical in terms of what you inputted in your reply.

    What determines if your line is practical is when you >load< the inside rear.  Specifically load it too soon and you’ll grind off speed and never catch the karts ahead.

    I’ll assume I’m correct so far or at least we have an understanding.

    So that turn you make to shorten the distance, also has to be rounded out enough so it will keep the inside rear unloaded until your able to exit on your intended straight line.  The only thing that’s going to allow you to efficiently cut the distance and catch them, now becomes how sharp you made your actual initial turn in.

    The only way you can control the shape, is with fine driver control to smoooooth the steering wheel during the quick motion of the initial turn in.

    Well, I went and put my heart and head out there again.  I hope it allowed me to pull it out of my butt some.  But heck maybe just the opposite happened, because I don’t know what’s on others minds, only my own.

     

    paul

     

    ps… again I hope my reply is seen as only addressing physical things which I see happen or can happen on the track and are not seen as arguing.

     

     

    Brake, Insert 'arc', Turn, Accelerate

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