Home Forums General Karting Discussion Tag Classes

This topic contains 17 replies, has 6 voices, and was last updated by  Richard talbert 4 weeks ago.

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  • #90316

    Richard talbert
    Participant

    So, question! Why are the major karting series going main stream with there 125 tag classes? Back when I was trying to break into tag kart racing, trying to find an engine I could afford; there were open tag classes. Now, it’s either Rotax or Iame! Even with the WKA! Why is this? I feel like I’m  being forced to buy a $3,000 engine when I can spend that on an F2000 race weekend or Champ car. Which, would be much more memorable. Anyone care to explain?

    #90393

    TJ Koyen
    Moderator

    By comparing a $3000 rent-a-ride day in an F2000 to purchasing a kart engine, you’re not really comparing apples to apples. A full arrive-and-drive entry at a national level kart race would be 1/3 of that probably.

    The first answer would be the manufacturers are throwing money at the series to run their engine only.

    But also, if you were actually trying to compete across the entire season in a mixed engine TaG class, you needed multiple engine makes to consistently run up front, as the track layouts favored a different engine each weekend.

    Yes, it does suck for the weekend warrior or local guy who wants to come try his hand but doesn’t have the right engine, but the manufacturers do bring in some nice incentives for karters, and the playing field in the TaG classes is much more level and even now than it ever was.

    Also, there are still 100cc classes out there if you’re looking for something cheaper to run.

    Driver/Coach/Wrench : Innovative Performance/Exprit
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    #90401

    Richard talbert
    Participant

    Thanks for responding TJ.

    So, I was quoted close to 10k for a super nats race weekend and 5k for a wka event at pit. Compared to 8k for a full race weekend at a formula 1 grand prix in Canada in a formula ford b car with a top team? I’m sorry if you disagree with me. And to add, even if I did have the budget I would still complain. Some stuff seems to costly compared to there big brothers. I have noticed the drop in chassis cost for some manufactures.

    #90409

    TJ Koyen
    Moderator

    I would put 10k at the very top end of the price range for SuperNats. Most teams I talked to were between 3-5k for a SuperNats arrive-and-drive in X30. 5k for a WKA weekend sounds insane. You could rent an engine and kart for like 1k for most national races. If you want to get under a tent program, I can see that price going up a little, but 5k is someone putting quite a few bills directly into their pocket at your expense.

    I won’t disagree that karting can be costly compared to some of the lower level formula series. Arguably, karting DOES provide better competition and much more intense racing. I suppose it depends on what you’re looking for.

    Driver/Coach/Wrench : Innovative Performance/Exprit
    Owner : Oktane Visual - www.oktanevisual.com
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    • This reply was modified 1 month ago by  TJ Koyen.
    #90424

    Richard talbert
    Participant

    And TJ, I agree 80% with you. But this 10k came from a team that i’m not going to name, that I think was just below a factory team quoted me this. If there judgement was from what I think, they will be out of business like the clones motors. That 5k came from a factory team with a tent space, a driver coach, a dedicated mechanic, some tires and one motor and etc. I can kind of understand this from even my lack of experience with this because I have no actual experience from them. From where I grew up at there taking advantage of people. Lets say it’s 5k for a frame, they made it up in one race. Not telling what they made for an entire series of 5 to 6 races. I’m sorry, and  don’t get me started on USF 2000. These are actual facts from actual kart teams. Skip Barber or Bertelli roos don’t charge this much for drivers school. Facts!!!

    #90448

    Larry Hayashigawa
    Participant

    Single Engine Class: Single engines classes create the sense and for the most create parity, especially at the club racing level.  In addition, the aftermarket for motors is significantly better for the new comer and helps retain motor value.  With a handicapped multi-engine class, the aftermarket gets littered with motors that are not competitive making it difficult for the newby to decide what motor to buy.

    Kart Racing Costs: I believe that the Challenge of the Americas Rok Engine series rented motors out for $1000 for the 3 weekend series and $500 per weekend (Sat-Sunday).  Buy a used TonyKart chassis for $2500, which probably could be sold for $2000 after 3 weekends, so the net cost for the chassis is $500 for 3 weekends.  Add in entry fee, fee tires and misc, which in round numbers would be $400/weekend.  I think that comes up to $900/weekend.  If you need a tuner/mechanic add another $200.  That’s $1100 per weekend.

     

    Larry

    #90466

    Christian Fox
    Participant

    Why would you compare SuperNats to a Bertil Roos weekend? A more fair comparison would be a club race. You can do an arrive-and-drive kart race in a competitive field at my home track for about $300, including race entry.

    Why would anyone who is not a committed, competitive kart racer show up out of the blue to race SuperNats or a WKA event? SuperNats is the most competitive kart race on US soil. A Bertil Roos weekend is, um, not the most competitive car race.

     

    #90469

    Richard talbert
    Participant

    Why would you compare SuperNats to a Bertil Roos weekend? A more fair comparison would be a club race. You can do an arrive-and-drive kart race in a competitive field at my home track for about $300, including race entry. Why would anyone who is not a committed, competitive kart racer show up out of the blue to race SuperNats or a WKA event? SuperNats is the most competitive kart race on US soil. A Bertil Roos weekend is, um, not the most competitive car race.

    Wow! First off, I’m comparing cost vs worth if you were paying attention. And, what I meant by that (drivers school) comment was for 5k I would rather go and get my comp license! Second, I don’t know who you were referring to with the out the blue comment. That so person might need some practice races before taking such a route. I like to run my numbers ahead. You don’t know so persons commitment or skill level. So get your facts straight first. Third, who said a rookie can’t win a race. Fourth, you want to be the best, you have to run with the best. This is a fact! Fifth, not everyone is Michael Schumacher. And last but not least, from what I’m seeing is you have spend to spend quite some coin to be competitive in the higher series. You see this all through out racing.

    Thanks for responding Christian

    #90470

    Christian Fox
    Participant

    All I was saying was that a race like SuperNats is the pinnacle of the sport (karting) in the US, a weekend school in a formula car is not the pinnacle of car racing. That’s why I don’t think it’s a fair comparison.

    What something is “worth” is a very subjective thing. If you think a weekend in a car is “worth” more than a weekend in a kart, great, it’s an easy choice then. Totally cool.

    And I wasn’t referring to anyone in particular, but I would bet my net worth a true rookie could not show up and win SuperNats, or any National race for that matter. Speaking of Schumacher, he raced SuperNats a number of times, and despite being a bad ass shifter kart driver and a 7 time F1 champ, he never won.

    And yes, to be the best you have to run with the best, but you need a good bit of time racing at the club or regional level to be even remotely competitive at a National level kart race.

     

     

    #90474

    Richard talbert
    Participant

    Your rite, it’s all good fun Christian! The Nats is the pinnacle of US kart racing. It sucks that we are so far away from Europe and such places for some good racing. As for me, I wouldn’t hesitate to hop in the ring with the pro’s.

    #90490

    Christian Fox
    Participant

    It’s all good Richard! Karting is an absolute blast. You are correct in that is expensive to run at the National level, but it’s important to remember there is really good racing to be had at the club level as well. There are loads of talented drivers that don’t have the budget to race all over the place, but they can still race locally against really good competition.

    #90569

    Richard talbert
    Participant

    Single Engine Class: Single engines classes create the sense and for the most create parity, especially at the club racing level. In addition, the aftermarket for motors is significantly better for the new comer and helps retain motor value. With a handicapped multi-engine class, the aftermarket gets littered with motors that are not competitive making it difficult for the newby to decide what motor to buy. Kart Racing Costs: I believe that the Challenge of the Americas Rok Engine series rented motors out for $1000 for the 3 weekend series and $500 per weekend (Sat-Sunday). Buy a used TonyKart chassis for $2500, which probably could be sold for $2000 after 3 weekends, so the net cost for the chassis is $500 for 3 weekends. Add in entry fee, fee tires and misc, which in round numbers would be $400/weekend. I think that comes up to $900/weekend. If you need a tuner/mechanic add another $200. That’s $1100 per weekend. Larry

    And, $1,100 a weekend is not bad coming from someone that use to make $12/hr for a national event(from my belief); racing every other month.

    #90594

    Mark Traylor
    Participant

    Richard,

    If you do not want to race karts then don’t.  You don’t need to come on a karting forum and complain about how terrible it is.  We are karting people here.   There is a place in karting for nearly any budget and skill level.  If someone wants to jump in the sport at the top level when getting started I will assure you they will become frustrated and will typically be very short lived in the sport.

     

    Trust me your ideas on marketing karting are not new, and I can assure you that they typically do not pay back.  For instance, my club was offered a highly discounted 10’x10′ space at an indycar event.  For that to pay off you would need to get 10 new club members that will each race 10 times that year.   the ROI on the booth investment is non existent.  FACT (using your word).  Indoor kart tracks for the vast majority see outdoor race karting as a competitor, not a partner.  98% will not welcome race kart advertising, its akin to Target advertising inside a Walmart.

    Can kart racing be improved? Ofcourse it can.  Honestly you dont have a clue about the sport though.

    #90596

    Richard talbert
    Participant

    Thanks for responding Taylor,

    Last time I checked this is a forum to talk about karting.(This is a fact)

    If you don’t like what I’m saying, then don’t read it.(I’m guessing rental karts doesn’t count as racing experience either)

    I know as much about the sport as you respond or insult me on this forum!

    My issue is, that I don’t want to buy into an engine that will change like a trend.

    How much was the tent space?

    Was your ROI karters or $? (You make it seem like recruiting karters is business!)

    What are you selling?

    If it was for the sport as a whole, there are over a thousands members on this forum; ask for a donation! (I WOULD GLADLY DONATE MY UNEXPERIENCED DOLLARS TO YOU) Facts!!!

    You only stated one (fact). I would actually like to know who actually tried this for promotion.

    Has anyone tried a street race? Your more likely to get people that don’t know anything about the (sport)!

    And I never said anything about running a full pro season out the blue. Someone might want to run an event or two to see how they stack up. Yo know, to see there hard earned progress.

    How much did they spend?

    If SKUSA said they tried this at the Long Beach GP (I will immediately shut up)

    Why do I say this? Because I found out about karting watching a Stars of Karting race on the speed channel and was directed to club racing searching on forums like this.

     

     

    #90599

    Mark Traylor
    Participant

    I did not insult you.  I pointed out the obvious.

    There are street races, the largest of which is the Streets of Lancaster GP.  They are very expensive and logisitically challenging to put on.

    many karting entities have done booths.  They are popular but do not translate into new karters.  Yes, running a karting club is a business, you can not spend money that 1) you don’t have, or 2) money that does not lead to a corresponding growth.  The 10×10 booth I spoke of was discounted down to $8500.  My ROI was in participating karters, that was clear.  Track Magic used to have a booth at the NASCAR and INdycar races at Sonoma raceway.  My club used to partner with the Bondurant School at large events such as Barrett Jackson Auctions.  They just flatly do not pay off, cost and effort is well beyond the value of new leads.

     

    Your issue is valid about engines.  Currently the X30 can be raced at nearly any track in the country with multiple series using them, SKUSA Pro Tour, USPKS, WKA,  IKF, SKUSA Winter Tour,  Gold Cup, and pretty much any club in the country.   Don’t get too invested in any one package, be flexible and willing to liqudate and change before an engine becomes near worthless.

    SKUSA has spent a lot of money putting karting on TV.  I was involved in one of the first karting series that was televised, Formula Swift Superkart.

    I have found the best way to recruit people into karting is to talk to people about it and mentor them as they get started.  This is a VERY difficult sport and it is very intimidating.

    Franklly for as often as you use the word “fact” you have very few of them.  Karters as a community have been doing this for some time, the community has its issues but we all work hard to grow the sport.

    If you wish to donate to a kart club, great.  Find your local club and donate to them.   Your posts have gone from asking questions as a new person to the sport to Trolling.

    #90600

    Richard talbert
    Participant

    Wow, last time I checked those people who participate in the so called (sport of trolling) are fans and that’s what sponsors want to see. Butts in the stands supporting master kart racers such as your self. Thanks for all your contributions to the sport! Just to add, I admire people who do what I want to do on a pro level. You and Christian, I don’t admire anymore nor would never watch your race. Good luck keeping fans with that type of mentality.

    Shoot me a message if your kart club ever needs an UNEXPERIENCED dotation!

    Thanks for responding

    #90601

    Clark Gaynor Sr.
    Participant

    I know we at the Woodbridge Kart Club do all we can to make our spectators have a great experience.  BOTH OF THEM;) :> :]

    Ya’, we even invest money in a 30 second ad which runs prior to our events on Comcast in the DC, Northern Virginia area.  We have NEVER had anyone show up at one of our events which said they were there because of the ad.

    Richard, you are enthusiastic, but you REALLY need to go to a true kart race so you can actually see what’s going on.

    Clark Sr.

    #90604

    Richard talbert
    Participant

    Thanks for responding Clark.

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