Stock Honda is better than KZ!

[Jimmy McNeil]

Just couldn’t resist ;)

[Rob Howden]

Dude…you suck. ;-) See you in Grand Junction.

Rob Howden - eKartingNews.com Publisher / Editor - @RobHowden

[Ted Hamilton]

Kickin’ the shifter category off with the age-old debate to boose your view count, eh? I see what you did there…

www.facebook.com/hamiltonhelmets/
2014 Praga Dragon / IAME KA-100

[Jason Bane]

Nice Jimmy, stress testing the new format huh?…..

[Tyson Henry]

I wish there was just one jetting I could use on my Honda. Too complicating changing jets.

[Riley Will]

Tyson, you are being a pussy!

Jimmy, lets go Down Under for some Superkarting… I am transplanting some Canadian equipment in Adelaide.

BTW, KZ kicks every Moto’s A$$!!!!

[Chris Reinhardt]

Riley, if that were true, KZ would be more popular here in the states where there’s a choice. The rest of the world, KZ is shoved down everybody’s throat….
I’m with Jimmy on this one…..

CR

Chris Reinhardt

CR2 Motorsports

http://www.cr2motorsports.webs.com/

XV Racing Products

http://www.xvengineering.com/

­­

[Jeff DeMello]

Jimmy’s the man

[Gabriel Podboj]

Tom Bart… come on.. everybody is waiting for your now traditional BS against Honda.. it is classical already..

[Bernard Muminovic]

“The rest of the world, KZ is shoved down everybody’s throat….”

Where do you come up with these things?

[Greg Wright]

So glad to see this topic come up so soon. I can hardly wait for the Chris vs Tom vs Chris vs Tom wrangle to resume on the new forum.

Greg Wright
Rapid Racing Inc.

Greg Wright
Rapid Racing Inc.
Vintage B-Stock Pilot
"When in doubt Gas it, It won't help but it ends the suspense."

[Benn Herr]

It wouldn’t be home without ’em!

[Tyson Henry]

Tyson, you are being a pussy!

Guess you don’t read these(or those) forums enough to get my reference. I personally don’t mind spending the 60 seconds to change a jet.

[Riley Will]

Tyson,

I was poking fun, no disrespect intended Thought I was going with Jimmy’s stirring of the pot.

Chris,

I personally think all 125’s are cool. Run what ya Brung is the flavor I like… Ive had and supported TM Moto, Yamaha Moto, Honda Moto, Pavesi FC/ICC/KZ reeds and rotarys, TM FC/KZ, Vortex FC/KZ, and Rotax disk valve along with Aprilia GP engines….

Im glad to see Stock Honda bring great competition back to the sport too. Also from what I hear, the Eastern states have a great following of the purpose built engines. Its all good, but trying to change people’s opinions about which is better is kinda like telling them to change their religion. Just accept the differences and move on already…

Shifter karting is definitely the most fun you can have in karting. It doesnt matter what type of engine you have on your kart, just as long as it has gears:)

[Frank Rapisarda]

Hey Jim Frank from NJ, great way to kick off the new look. If it is all about the money the cost of the parts alone will bankrupt most people. I can buy a complete honda crank for 135.00 to 150.00 everyday, cylinders 280.00 top end complete 125.00 for a KZ just a rod kit is 380.00 to 405.00 then send it to a shop to have it installed 50.00 – 75.00 A cylinder not sure but i am sure 500.00 plus, top ends 160.00 I live in the heart of KZ country ( NESS ) i am the only one that i know of with a mod honda. A good mod honda can run with the KZ no problem an not self destruct. I would like to see a real stock class, out of the box stock period for the honda and use a 05 motor, and have a box stock KZ class, if they get enough guy’s the class will live, if not buy a honda an have some fun, not like we make money in this sport, Oh and have a class like Riley said run what you brung, the only rule is it must be 125cc bring the family and friends and have a great day at the track.

[Tyson Henry]

Riley,

No worries, I knew you were joking. You missed the point though. Mr. Tom Barth has a magic jetting for KZ’s that never has to be changed. Honda doesn’t have one. Such a hassle.

[Riley Will]

Tyson,

A guy by the name of Joe White and I had a conversation about the “fit all” jetting…. It was awesome, my stomach still hurts from Joe’s comments:). Not sure if he is that well known as a credible source or not.

Btw, who is this Jimmy Mc”Big Wheel” Niel Kid? He sure is stirring the pot like he has done something or knows something…. Must be from Kalifornia!

[Tyson Henry]

Yeah, Jimmy should really get off the boards and go race in some big races or something.

[Spencer Uzri]

DD2 is where it’s at.

[Andrew Pachon]

CR!!!

[Thomas Barth]

Wow!! I made it! Took a while but with some help from my friends wormed my way through the registration exercise for the new RH EKN format.

 

Now to get down to business—-Honda bashing!

It is still hard for me to understand why any self respecting karter would want to get into a shifter kart with an entanglement of hoses and wires, a exhaust pipe that is on backwards, then trust their skills to keeping the ugly beast on the track!!

A post about the cheap parts for the dirt bike engine forgets that there are no longer any engines being produced. A fact that does not give one confidence in future service or parts availability.

Just a week ago an ex Honda pilot showed his rear bumper to the reigning Honda king, Lance Lane . Congrats to Eric Chappell on taking his new Maxter to victory at the Grattan CES road race.

I have a question for the Honda tuners, do you tune the Honda or just use the forum to tune up your B.S. skills?

Anyway its good to be back on track – gotta luv KZ. P.S. almost forgot…trying to find a used KZ, emailed a karter to inquire if he would sell his K9B. He said he couldn’t – already promised it to a Honda owner who wanted a real ride!

[Dave Stevens]

What’s a KZ?…

[Jimmy McNeil]

LMAO

“Nice Jimmy, stress testing the new format huh?…..”

Proud to be the first to start the crap talking on the new EKN, I always enjoy these discussions.

“Jimmy, lets go Down Under for some Superkarting… I am transplanting some Canadian equipment in Adelaide.”

Shoot me a pm

If your going to meet that Sam character down there, take him a bottle of 409 for me.

[Bernard Adamson]

Tom Tom Tom,

only half stories again i see…tut tut tut  :-)

“Just a week ago an ex Honda pilot showed his rear bumper to the reigning Honda king, Lance Lane . Congrats to Eric Chappell on taking his new Maxter to victory at the Grattan CES road race.”

Saturdays Race:

http://www.mylaps.com/en/classification/2773443

 

Pretty sure that says Lance Lane P1…..hmmmmmm

Eric, Ted, Joe & Daniel are not on Honda’s right ?….

Joe Barth & Daniel Barth wouldnt be any relation would they….cough….nahhhhh couldnt happen :-)

 

Sundays Race:

http://www.mylaps.com/en/classification/2773452

Good job Eric…..

Wait…….
Where did those Barth boys go ????…..Hang on let me find them …….

Oops
Pesky old Honda……

:-)

[Sam Zavaglia]

Come down under Jimmy for some road racing, I’ll clean your ass with the 409.

[Sam Zavaglia]

Gee Tom,

Did those Barth boys really get smacked by CR’s?

Did you tune their KZ’s to a stand still? Didn’t you use the Techsav setup?

:-) :-)

[Jimmy McNeil]

I’ll clean your ass with the 409.

Im into chicks Sam, but thanks for the offer ;)

 

[GARY DELCOURE]

It’s kind of like GFS is better than pump around!!  :0 did I say that?

[Thomas Barth]

Bernie,

Did you check Sunday? Guess not.

Saturday was photo finish. Check the times please.

[Thomas Barth]

Sam,

They won’t let me tune their engines.

[Thomas Barth]

I don’t have a KZ at the moment but I’m looking for one.

To bad I can’t stomach the Honda. Lot of them for sale. Honda guys lookin’ for KZ’s

[Thomas Barth]

Ya Bernie excuses are like a**holes, everybody’s got one. I do too. So here it is: KZ’s must weigh 410 lbs, wimpy Hondas 390. I’ll be the first to tell you that I’ll take weight reduction before horsepower any day! Except if the choice must be Honda

[Jason Santander]

Max Verstappen, theres your SKUSA KZ winner this year

Birel CR32SR Complete roller $2k
set of new tires on wheels, extra set wheels, freeline large & small rad, tons of freeline components

TWO CRS ICC motors complete- rebuilt $3k
Custom Pit Cart

[Jimmy McNeil]

I hope your rite jason.

I felt bad for the kid last year, he killed them all week then dnf’d the main. I heard it was a spark plug cap issue.

Dont know that I’ve ever seen someone so dominate in that class

[Sam Zavaglia]

quote from Tom – “Sam, They won’t let me tune their engines.”

Tom, they must be mad with a man of your experience.

[Daniel Barth]

Bernard Adamson wrote:

Tom Tom Tom,

 

only half stories again i see…tut tut tut :-)

“Just a week ago an ex Honda pilot showed his rear bumper to the reigning Honda king, Lance Lane . Congrats to Eric Chappell on taking his new Maxter to victory at the Grattan CES road race.”

Saturdays Race:

http://www.mylaps.com/en/classification/2773443

 

Pretty sure that says Lance Lane P1…..hmmmmmm

Eric, Ted, Joe & Daniel are not on Honda’s right ?….

Joe Barth & Daniel Barth wouldnt be any relation would they….cough….nahhhhh couldnt happen

 

Sundays Race:

http://www.mylaps.com/en/classification/2773452

Good job Eric…..

Wait…….
Where did those Barth boys go ????…..Hang on let me find them …….

Oops
Pesky old Honda……

 

Guys, guys, guys. I’m just coming out of retirement, tipping the scales at 440 llbs kart and driver and driving a 12 year old TM K9. Please leave me out of this discussion. I have raced with Lance Lane and Ted Steffke in my past and have great respect for both of them as drivers and friends. I have also raced with Eric both when he was on a moto and KZ and like him just the same. They are all great guys and it’s nice being back at the track to catch up with them.

I also love my and respect my grandfather. He has his own opinions and has been around the sport a long time. I think we can all respect and appreciate his passion for the sport in general.

Hope to see some of you at the track as I ease my way back into this great sport.

Daniel Barth

[Thomas Barth]

OK, OK, OK my issue with Honda:

Not a kart engine – I’m a purist

When a karter buys a Honda — somewhere a moto crosser doesn’t have an engine in his dirt bike!!

Honda CR125 bikes are no longer produced.

Honda engine is protected by the organizers by putting them in a separate class. Run ’em all together like the international races, 30 – 40 entries.

No kart specs for Honda.

Not an international engine – no CIK specs

[Charles]

Why are we arguing about the two best engines in karting?

The Stock Moto is a cheap engine with cheap parts, that makes a kart go fast enough to make new drivers bug-eyed and give experienced drivers a thrill.

The KZ is an insanely-powerful and responsive engine that ends up being surprisingly inexpensive to run if you don’t port it out too far and run it too lean.

There’s enough room for both of them on our tracks.

[Thomas Barth]

There’s enough room for both of them on our tracks.

 

Yup, why not score ’em together?

[Jeff DeMello]

Thomas Barth wrote:

OK, OK, OK my issue with Honda: Not a kart engine – I’m a purist When a karter buys a Honda — somewhere a moto crosser doesn’t have an engine in his dirt bike!! Honda CR125 bikes are no longer produced. Honda engine is protected by the organizers by putting them in a separate class. Run ‘em all together like the international races, 30 – 40 entries. No kart specs for Honda. Not an international engine – no CIK specs

<hr />

<div class=”bbp-reply-signature”>tdb/GFK</div>

yet you work on TM engines

[Jeff DeMello]

Thomas Barth wrote:

There’s enough room for both of them on our tracks. Yup, why not score ‘em together?

<hr />

<div class=”bbp-reply-signature”>tdb/GFK</div>

 

maybe the KZ has a little more power!!!

[Keith Bridgeman]

Here is a question,

If all costs of purchase and operation where equal what engine would you buy,  stock honda, mod honda or KZ – whatever brand.      So the basic answer will be, is cost a major issue for you or is it more about function, etc.

http://bridgemanbroskarting.blogspot.com/

[Joseph Hollinger]

Unless one brand of KZ is way better than all of the others, then its always going to be a question of which KZ is best for the track you are at. Better off with Stock Moto.

[Chris Reinhardt]

Keith, you have buy in cost, operation cost, and modification cost.

With stock Honda, you don’t have ANY modification costs, and the operational costs are lower.

The sales pitch with the ICC stuff was that it comes out of the box fast, and all the parts are racing specific and therefore last longer justifying the higher prices.  That’s what everybody thought back in the day when they switched from Mod’s to ICC.

Well, we all know that if the rules allow for modifications, somebody will do it.  So you buy an off the shelf KZ, Tom tells you just bring it up to “spec” and then you proceed get spanked by a Tech Sav mill!  So then your fairly reliable 50 liter between top ends KZ gets sent off to Tech Sav to get built.  It comes back, your wallet is waaaaay lighter, and  you now have a fast as snot KZ ticking time bomb!!!

Now on the other hand, you buy a stock Honda from your favorite source, and you send it out to get built, sorry wait a minute, you can’t modify a Stock Honda.  So you buy it, then you run it, then maintain it……..

That’s basically the difference between a Stock Honda and a KZ in a nut shell….

Now if there were a “Stock KZ” class, then yes you would have to find the best motor for the track, or best motor overall each homologation period.  That couldn’t be too expensive at all…….

CR

Chris Reinhardt

CR2 Motorsports

http://www.cr2motorsports.webs.com/

XV Racing Products

http://www.xvengineering.com/

­­

[Thomas Barth]

The above BS by CR is indicative of the lack of knowledge by those who believe the stock Honda is the choice of champions. The KZ package is available in several brands and is just as reliable as the CR125, out performs it, cost is the same as a  ‘built’ spec Honda. I’m not sure what the difference is between bringing a KZ up to spec or a Honda up to spec. Let’s hear the facts not stories of the ‘old west’.

[Keith Bridgeman]

Darn it, here we go.   Its really simple.  ALL COSTS are EQUAL.   What would you choose.  Don’t make it more then it is.

KZ engines are perfect out of the box.  My first ICC was a CRS which was out of the box stock for the whole year I had it and I was faster then my mod honda straight away.   The modification of engines is not the KZ or any engines fault.  Does the honda need to be modified?  I guess not,   Stock Moto right!   Same for KZ.

I just won a race on a 2006 Maxter.   There where 2002 Pavesi’s and TM k9s that where right there.   Unless your top level the whole you need the latest is bunk and you know it.

Nevermind this argument,  its not going to work.   I thought it might be fun

 

Chris,  I ran stock moto all of 2010.   Good engine, ran great all year, power was good. I’ve owned many KZ, mod honda and stock honda engines so I need now history lesson.

Also the parts engine you by from Skark Shifter and put it together is not the same as the national level engines by a builder.  Close,  sure but I bet there are at least 2-3 hp difference.  You know that.

 

http://bridgemanbroskarting.blogspot.com/

[Thomas Barth]

 
<p class=”MsoNormal” style=”margin: 0in 0in 10pt;”><span style=”font-size: medium;”><span style=”color: #000000;”><span style=”font-family: Calibri;”>As the debate goes on it might be a good idea to offer a viewpoint based on experience from attending the 2011 SKUSA Super Nats. This event was staged in the parking lot of the Rio Hotel in Las Vegas NV. Because of the purse, entrants came from all corners of the earth. I was able to attend and tried to absorb as much karting as I could. If you want to know what international karting is like this is the place to be.</span></span></span></p>
 
<p class=”MsoNormal” style=”margin: 0in 0in 10pt;”><span style=”font-size: medium;”><span style=”color: #000000;”><span style=”font-family: Calibri;”>The event is where the men are separated from the boys in the sense that the best drivers, teams and equipment show up to compete for the big bucks.</span></span></span></p>
 
<p class=”MsoNormal” style=”margin: 0in 0in 10pt;”><span style=”font-size: medium;”><span style=”color: #000000;”><span style=”font-family: Calibri;”>Naturally the first order of the day is to do a thorough inspection of the pits. The racing hardware is on display if you can worm <span style=”mso-spacerun: yes;”> </span>your way into the team tents or just absorb what is in the open for anyone to see.</span></span></span></p>
 
<p class=”MsoNormal” style=”margin: 0in 0in 10pt;”><span style=”font-size: medium;”><span style=”color: #000000;”><span style=”font-family: Calibri;”>KZ’s and Hondas share the same space. You can see the Honda contingent and the various brands of KZ karts. A quick visual comparison of the KZ shifter kart to the Honda shifter kart leaves the viewer with a sense that the Honda might be out of place here, the elephant trunk pipe, big black electrical box with cables, wires and the ’plumbers nightmare ‘ pump around <span style=”mso-spacerun: yes;”> </span>fuel system…..the KZ shifter kart seems somewhat demure next to the big bad dirt bike engine kart. </span></span></span></p>
 
<p class=”MsoNormal” style=”margin: 0in 0in 10pt;”><span style=”font-size: medium;”><span style=”color: #000000;”><span style=”font-family: Calibri;”>Next is practice. If you keep track of times you soon realize that there are two distinct classes. The KZ’ sound is ‘sweet’, mini F1’s.<span style=”mso-spacerun: yes;”>  </span>Honda … well, it sounds like a Honda. You are also left to wonder why there were no Kawasaki, Suzuki, or Yamaha engines.</span></span></span></p>
 
<p class=”MsoNormal” style=”margin: 0in 0in 10pt;”><span style=”font-size: medium;”><span style=”color: #000000;”><span style=”font-family: Calibri;”>When the heats and finals are over you’re left with a sense of awe for the KZ drivers, teams and their equipment. Honda…at best is just also ran. If it wasn’t for the KZ, there would be no SKUSA Super Nat.</span></span></span></p>
 
<p class=”MsoNormal” style=”margin: 0in 0in 10pt;”><span style=”font-size: medium;”><span style=”color: #000000;”><span style=”font-family: Calibri;”>I did meet the Savard family (Tec Sav) at Vegas and they were very generous with technical info for KZ engine. I believe they are now working with the new LKE engine. </span></span></span></p>
<p class=”MsoNormal” style=”margin: 0in 0in 10pt;”><span style=”font-size: medium;”><span style=”color: #000000;”><span style=”font-family: Calibri;”>If the Lord is willin’ and the creek don’t rise I’ll be there this November.</span></span></span></p>
<p class=”MsoNormal” style=”margin: 0in 0in 10pt;”><span style=”font-size: medium;”><span style=”color: #000000;”><span style=”font-family: Calibri;”>Your Faithful Servant</span></span></span></p>
<p class=”MsoNormal” style=”margin: 0in 0in 10pt;”>tdb/GFK</p>
 

[Joseph Hollinger]

Well, that didn’t work.

[Charles Skowron]

Joseph Hollinger wrote:

Unless one brand of KZ is way better than all of the others, then its always going to be a question of which KZ is best for the track you are at. Better off with Stock Moto.

 

I don’t think the KZ class (TRUE KZ engines, I should point out) suffers from the same nightmare that is currently plaguing the TaG class. Namely, trying to equalize all of the different TaGs brands together under one race group.

Despite it’s disadvantages, the KZ class has a big plus (compared to TaG) in that it’s a homologated class, strictly regulated by the CIK.  All KZs use ONE ignition, ONE size carb, the dimensions of each pipe is homologated, the CC volume is regulated, and the exhaust port opening is controlled. 

TaG isn’t like that. The engines are all vastly different, with different carbs, ignitions, RPM ranges, pipes, etc. that creates the “this engine for this track, that engine for that track” mess the class suffers from.

Also, I’m not sure how CIK homologation works now, but I don’t think any KZ manufacturer can produce a major re-design of their motor on a whim right before a major event; theoretically, an engine brand could make a sudden change at any time in TaG, which further muddles things.

Are some KZ engines better than others? Yes. Does a specific model of KZ improve with each homologation? Yes. Can an engine builder significantly improve on a KZ in stock form? We all know the answer to that one. But I think the nature of the rules and regs that KZ runs under prevents the sort of “certain model for a certain track problem” that TaG suffers from.

 

[Chris Reinhardt]

Keith Bridgeman wrote:

Darn it, here we go. Its really simple. ALL COSTS are EQUAL. What would you choose. Don’t make it more then it is. KZ engines are perfect out of the box. My first ICC was a CRS which was out of the box stock for the whole year I had it and I was faster then my mod honda straight away. The modification of engines is not the KZ or any engines fault. Does the honda need to be modified? I guess not, Stock Moto right! Same for KZ. I just won a race on a 2006 Maxter. There where 2002 Pavesi’s and TM k9s that where right there. Unless your top level the whole you need the latest is bunk and you know it. Nevermind this argument, its not going to work. I thought it might be fun Chris, I ran stock moto all of 2010. Good engine, ran great all year, power was good. I’ve owned many KZ, mod honda and stock honda engines so I need now history lesson. Also the parts engine you by from Skark Shifter and put it together is not the same as the national level engines by a builder. Close, sure but I bet there are at least 2-3 hp difference. You know that.

 

You guys keep sticking your heads in the sand….  STOCK HONDA That means there’s no modifications allowed….  KZ are fast out of the box, but they can be modified within the rules.  Currently in the USA, there isn’t a pro level KZ series, and I don’t think there’s too many serious racers willing to get a KZ maxed out.  That’s why most of the people on here talking from “experience” say it’s not needed to build one up.

Ask McNeil what it cost to setup a pro level KZ, and what happen to the maintenance intervals, he ran them back when there was a pro level series here in the states for KZ,  There is however a pro level Stock Honda series, and plenty of valid info with regards to what a maxed out Stock Honda is.

http://www.tecsav-shop.com/  Plenty of good info here, oh yah, Tom gives away all there speed secrets for free!!!!

CR

 

Chris Reinhardt

CR2 Motorsports

http://www.cr2motorsports.webs.com/

XV Racing Products

http://www.xvengineering.com/

­­

[Chris Reinhardt]

Keith Bridgeman wrote:

Darn it, here we go. Its really simple. ALL COSTS are EQUAL. What would you choose. Don’t make it more then it is. KZ engines are perfect out of the box. My first ICC was a CRS which was out of the box stock for the whole year I had it and I was faster then my mod honda straight away. The modification of engines is not the KZ or any engines fault. Does the honda need to be modified? I guess not, Stock Moto right! Same for KZ. I just won a race on a 2006 Maxter. There where 2002 Pavesi’s and TM k9s that where right there. Unless your top level the whole you need the latest is bunk and you know it. Nevermind this argument, its not going to work. I thought it might be fun Chris, I ran stock moto all of 2010. Good engine, ran great all year, power was good. I’ve owned many KZ, mod honda and stock honda engines so I need now history lesson. Also the parts engine you by from Skark Shifter and put it together is not the same as the national level engines by a builder. Close, sure but I bet there are at least 2-3 hp difference. You know that.

 

Keith, you need to make up your mind!!!

But Tom,  Tec-Sav and all the rest are tunners right?   Massive amounts of work are done to the KZ engines.  Porting, pollishing, huge changes in the intake,  polishing the transmission.  There are limits do many things but lots can and are done.  I have the bills to prove it.

Don’t get me wrong I prefer KZ by a long shot.

Chris Reinhardt

CR2 Motorsports

http://www.cr2motorsports.webs.com/

XV Racing Products

http://www.xvengineering.com/

­­

[Keith Bridgeman]

For crying out load,  I’m not talking about what was done or what can be done, whatever.  If all costs where equal.    If you bought the damn engine and over 3 years you put the same amount into each over those years whats your choice.   Its not that hard to understand.

http://bridgemanbroskarting.blogspot.com/

[Chris Reinhardt]

Keith Bridgeman wrote:

For crying out load, I’m not talking about what was done or what can be done, whatever. If all costs where equal. If you bought the damn engine and over 3 years you put the same amount into each over those years whats your choice. Its not that hard to understand.

 

But all costs are not equal, what’s the point?  Are we creating a fantasy league here?

CR

Chris Reinhardt

CR2 Motorsports

http://www.cr2motorsports.webs.com/

XV Racing Products

http://www.xvengineering.com/

­­

[Keith Bridgeman]

Its ok you don’t understand Chris,  maybe someone else will crasp the concept.  Sit this one out.

http://bridgemanbroskarting.blogspot.com/

[Chris Reinhardt]

Keith Bridgeman wrote:

Its ok you don’t understand Chris, maybe someone else will crasp the concept. Sit this one out.

crasp:
not being able to grasp the crap someone is talking

I’m sorry, you’re right…..   I “crasp” every time Tom is saying something also….  :)

CR

Chris Reinhardt

CR2 Motorsports

http://www.cr2motorsports.webs.com/

XV Racing Products

http://www.xvengineering.com/

­­

[Thomas Barth]

<span class=”bbp-breadcrumb-current”>Stock Honda is better than KZ!</span>

An Emphatic NO!!! Not true. Only in a dream.

[Arnaud Morauw]

But the real question is… why does it matter?…. If people are happy with their set-up, let it be CR or KZ, and there are performing well, then that should be the end of that discussion.

I’m a honda guy myself, for a couple reasons but I find some of these discussion pretty point less (but highly entertaining!)

 

Carry on ;)

[Jim]

KZ Sounds like a proper engine, needs constant updating fast

CR sounds like an injured animal, some updates needed less punishing races well

Jim Kidd CR faster than Jimmy McNeil in the rain at buttonwillow!!!! :-)

[gerard krempasky]

I have never ridden a kz.   I’d love to try an icc engine but haven’t yet.

Anyways here is my opinion.

I do like the purpose built kz’s for a couple of reasons.   exhaust coming out the rear.  air intake in the front.   no burns off pipe…. less clutter…. and ram air effect.

I also look at the cr125 like this.   that motor was most likely in development in the late 80’s or early 90’s at best.      Technology has changed enormously since then yet those motors are basically still running off that early design.        Now think about this for a moment.   Computers and computer aided design was like unheard of back then.   Hell the world wide web didn’t even exist.  Cell phones… nope.     This kind of illustrates the massive changes since then.   If you put a little thought to that you can envision that design and manufacturing improvements must have improved  immensely along with it since then.      A newly designed cr motor i’m sure would be much better.     Now compare that to a kz motor that has been designed with the newest available technology and i’m sure there is a stark contrast.

With that said I just bought a swedetech cr125 setup off a gentlemen on here.   lol.    Part of me wishes I opted for a tm icc motor but the Honda was available at the right time when I needed it so that is what I will run for the next couple of years.   I am a newbie anyways so it won’t matter much i’m sure.

idk.  just my two cents.

[Joseph Hollinger]

No cellphones in the 90’s? Wow.

[Thomas Barth]

Gerard,

Look at it this way, the best is yet to come! When you’re ready for a real ride, the KZ is waiting.

[Matt Dixon]

Thomas Barth wrote:

Gerard, Look at it this way, the best is yet to come!

<hr />

<div class=”bbp-reply-signature”>tdb/GFK</div>

So you have to keep buying new engines to keep up…

94y

[Bob Baldwin]

Can someone tell me what ICC motors are being run here in the USA beside TM, Pavesi, Maxter , SGM ? 7 ? ,

[Chris Reinhardt]

I wonder what computer designed the flat curve analog PVL ignition on the ICC’s?  :)

Hmmm, the 99 CR125 uses a digital ignition…..

CR

Chris Reinhardt

CR2 Motorsports

http://www.cr2motorsports.webs.com/

XV Racing Products

http://www.xvengineering.com/

­­

[Tim Pappas]

gerard krempasky wrote:

I also look at the cr125 like this. that motor was most likely in development in the late 80′s or early 90′s at best. Technology has changed enormously since then yet those motors are basically still running off that early design. Now think about this for a moment. Computers and computer aided design was like unheard of back then. Hell the world wide web didn’t even exist. Cell phones… nope. 

Hmmm. I was using computers to design combustion chambers, porting, reed cages, and pipes for said cr125 in the early nineties. I’m guessing that the Honda factory had a few more gigabytes than I did even in those dark ages.  I didn’t see any cell phones in those days, just people talking to a shoebox with an antenna.

[Thomas Barth]

Bob,

You’ve hit it close. The engines you mentioned are pretty much it except for maybe Debei.

[MikeGoebel]

<span style=”font-size: small;”><span style=”font-size: small;”></span></span>

There is nothing that compares to an ICC!!!!!!!

<span style=”font-size: small;”><span style=”font-size: small;”></span></span>

 

<span style=”font-size: small;”><span style=”font-size: small;”></span></span>

Mike G.

 

 

[Bob Baldwin]

Tom: I have NEVER heard of that ICC motor “DEBEI ”  MUST BE A WEST COAST THANG !!!

[Chris Reinhardt]

http://debeimotori.com/ENG/engines_exigo.php

CR

Chris Reinhardt

CR2 Motorsports

http://www.cr2motorsports.webs.com/

XV Racing Products

http://www.xvengineering.com/

­­

[Paul Makarucha]

The Debei’s built by Jeremy at Action Kart were on par power wise at last years best TMs and Maxters at Supernats.

Just ask Ron and Joe White…
eek

[Sam Zavaglia]

What about the Modena engine?

[Thomas Barth]

Modena looks good too, Sam

The beauty of KZ is the homologation specs that control the design of these engines. Pick your favorite you can be competitive.

[Chris Reinhardt]

Thomas Barth wrote:

Modena looks good too, Sam The beauty of KZ is the homologation specs that control the design of these engines. Pick your favorite you can be competitive.

<hr />

<div class=”bbp-reply-signature”>tdb/GFK</div>

  Tom, Wait a minute, let me get my boots back on!!!!

Another addition of Thomas in Wonderland….. :)

On paper, the formula looks like all engines will be equal, but in reality, when they get race prepped, the outcome is very different…

In all honesty, unless one motor is like 10hp more than another, the choice is pretty simple, buy a motor you can readily get parts for…..

CR

Chris Reinhardt

CR2 Motorsports

http://www.cr2motorsports.webs.com/

XV Racing Products

http://www.xvengineering.com/

­­

[Sam Zavaglia]

On the current CIK Homologation list for KZ2 engines there is;

Modena KK1

Vortex RVZ

Parilla Screamer

Parilla Drifter

LKE R14

TM KZ10B

Maxter MXS

Derbi Exigo?

 

How would I pick the best engine from the current CIK listing?

Which one is the fastest?

 

 

[Chris Reinhardt]

Sam Zavaglia wrote:

On the current CIK Homologation list for KZ2 engines there is; Modena KK1 Vortex RVZ Parilla Screamer Parilla Drifter LKE R14 TM KZ10B Maxter MXS Derbi Exigo? How would I pick the best engine from the current CIK listing? Which one is the fastest?

That’s Tom’s point Sam, they are all exactly the same, pick the one with the coolest name…. :)

CR

Chris Reinhardt

CR2 Motorsports

http://www.cr2motorsports.webs.com/

XV Racing Products

http://www.xvengineering.com/

­­

[Thomas Barth]

Chris said:

On paper, the formula looks like all engines will be equal, but in reality, when they get race prepped, the outcome is very different…

In all honesty, unless one motor is like 10hp more than another, the choice is pretty simple, buy a motor you can readily get parts for…..

I get parts for various KZ engines with no problems. I went to a local Honda shop for a piston one day….shop had to order it from a warehouse in Iowa. Now with CR125 out of production parts will get even harder to get.

I like to think of the CR125  as a ‘Johnny Cash’ engine  ‘One Piece At a Time’.

[Chris Reinhardt]

Thomas Barth wrote:

Chris said: On paper, the formula looks like all engines will be equal, but in reality, when they get race prepped, the outcome is very different… In all honesty, unless one motor is like 10hp more than another, the choice is pretty simple, buy a motor you can readily get parts for….. I get parts for various KZ engines with no problems. I went to a local Honda shop for a piston one day….shop had to order it from a warehouse in Iowa. Now with CR125 out of production parts will get even harder to get. I like to think of the CR125 as a ‘Johnny Cash’ engine ‘One Piece At a Time’.

<hr />

<div class=”bbp-reply-signature”>tdb/GFK</div>

 

I can get parts for various anything with no problem also, I can’t however walk into my local kart shop and order a KZ anything, I don’t have one, but I do have a local Honda shop that I can order parts from.

And for the millionth time, the 1999 CR125 kart engine is not out of production, it is very much alive and well, factory supported, has a factory contingency, a racer parts program, and the best part,   a FACTORY MANUAL!!!

The TM K”whatever” through K10a is out of production.  Plenty on the shelf though collecting dust….

Johnny Cash, really?

CR

 

Chris Reinhardt

CR2 Motorsports

http://www.cr2motorsports.webs.com/

XV Racing Products

http://www.xvengineering.com/

­­

[Thomas Barth]

Chris,

 

You’re totally out of sync. I’ve been trying to find a TM K engine for a week now. If you know of any TM KZ dust collectors, please contact me.

Just got back from a friends kart shop in Bellville, MI. Someone just dumped a trailer load of ‘junk’ on him. Three shifter karts, 2 Yamahas and a Honda. You should bag your a** out there. He’d probably give you those junkers.

 

How can you use a manual on a JC engine?

Thank the Lord we don’t need a manual for the KZ. Just bolt it on and go racin’.

 

P.S.

I believe TM will build you any model you would want. How about Honda???

[Chris Reinhardt]

Thomas Barth wrote:

Chris, You’re totally out of sync. I’ve been trying to find a TM K engine for a week now. If you know of any TM KZ dust collectors, please contact me. Just got back from a friends kart shop in Bellville, MI. Someone just dumped a trailer load of ‘junk’ on him. Three shifter karts, 2 Yamahas and a Honda. You should bag your a** out there. He’d probably give you those junkers. How can you use a manual on a JC engine? Thank the Lord we don’t need a manual for the KZ. Just bolt it on and go racin’. P.S. I believe TM will build you any model you would want. How about Honda???

<hr />

<div class=”bbp-reply-signature”>tdb/GFK</div>

http://italianmotors.myshopify.com/products/tm-kz10

How many do you want?

Of course you don’t need a manual for a KZ, the motors never come apart, you just rebuild but not blue print, cranks for other peoples customers…

The sad part is, you believe your own BS……

CR

Chris Reinhardt

CR2 Motorsports

http://www.cr2motorsports.webs.com/

XV Racing Products

http://www.xvengineering.com/

­­

[Thomas Barth]

Not looking for a KZ10. Need a B or C.

How do you blueprint a crank???

Yes, I do believe my own B.S. and so do my customers. They keep coming back!

[Chris Reinhardt]

Thomas Barth wrote:

Yes, I do believe my own B.S. and so do my customers. They keep coming back!

<hr />

<div class=”bbp-reply-signature”>tdb/GFK</div>

Alright Jim Jones, you got me….  I can’t argue with gullible customer’s……. Do you have vacation property in Guyana?

Note to self: Do not accept punch drink from Tom…..

 

Chris Reinhardt

CR2 Motorsports

http://www.cr2motorsports.webs.com/

XV Racing Products

http://www.xvengineering.com/

­­

[Thomas Barth]

No vacation but I do have some customers in Guyana.

<span style=”font-size: medium;”><span style=”color: #000000;”><span style=”font-family: Calibri;”>I think it might be helpful to explain for the low information Honda wrenches that I am referring <span style=”mso-spacerun: yes;”> </span>to the albero, (crankshaft in Italian) when I state that I re-build <span style=”mso-spacerun: yes;”> </span>the crankshaft for customers. This may seem confusing to the low information Honda wrenches because (I believe) that the Honda crankshaft is a <i style=”mso-bidi-font-style: normal;”>stamping</i> made from old car doors, bumpers, washing machines etc . </span></span></span>

<span style=”font-size: medium;”><span style=”color: #000000;”><span style=”font-family: Calibri;”>Unlike the Honda, the KZ crankshaft is an assembly made up from precision HSS details that are assembled in factory tooling. The design allows for replacement of the connecting rod bearing, pin and thrust washers when required.</span></span></span>

 
<p class=”MsoNormal” style=”margin: 0in 0in 10pt;”><span style=”font-size: medium;”><span style=”color: #000000;”><span style=”font-family: Calibri;”><i style=”mso-bidi-font-style: normal;”>There is in no way that the KZ crank can be modified by a tuner to improve performance</i>. When I state that I rebuild crankshafts for the KZ customer, I mean that I replace the rod, bearing, pin and washers when required by customer.</span></span></span></p>
<p class=”MsoNormal” style=”margin: 0in 0in 10pt;”>Any questions (can’t wait for them)?</p>
 

[Chris Reinhardt]

It seems that the “low information Honda wrenches” know more about crank building than the snooty spaghetti builders…  Which is odd, because you NEVER rebuild a CR125 crank, you just buy a new one….  Besides, your memory must be failing, we went through this already on EKN Ver 1.0…  and we established you know jack about building cranks….

You should just quit Tom, your digging yourself deeper…….

CR

Chris Reinhardt

CR2 Motorsports

http://www.cr2motorsports.webs.com/

XV Racing Products

http://www.xvengineering.com/

­­

[Thomas Barth]

Chris,

 

I didn’t write the post for you. Maybe you should stick to the Honda drivel.

[Chris Reinhardt]

Thomas Barth wrote:

Chris, I didn’t write the post for you. Maybe you should stick to the Honda drivel.

<hr />

<div class=”bbp-reply-signature”>tdb/GFK</div>

Don’t worry Tom, spaghetti motors are not in my future…. I’ll stick to the Honda “drivel” way more fun….

CR

Chris Reinhardt

CR2 Motorsports

http://www.cr2motorsports.webs.com/

XV Racing Products

http://www.xvengineering.com/

­­

[Bernard Muminovic]

Chris Reinhardt,

You have been bitching all this time in this thread and previous threads…you have all this to say about both motors, but have you EVER competed on a national or a competitive level? Certain things you say are just wtf…Google searches are great…but they are not better then experience!

[Chris Reinhardt]

Bernard Muminovic wrote:

Chris Reinhardt, You have been bitching all this time in this thread and previous threads…you have all this to say about both motors, but have you EVER competed on a national or a competitive level? Certain things you say are just wtf…Google searches are great…but they are not better then experience! 

The best quote I have ever heard in my life time, “If I read it on the internet, it must be true”  The reverse must also be true…  Don’t be lazy, ask around….

1999-2002 WKA Nation Road Race Series 125 Class.

2003-2005 WKA National Road Race Series Unlimted/Superkart

2013 East Coast Superkart Series

Here’s some play riding with my buddy Enzo…

Chris Reinhardt

CR2 Motorsports

http://www.cr2motorsports.webs.com/

XV Racing Products

http://www.xvengineering.com/

­­

[Thomas Barth]

Chris,

 

Yes, stick to Honda…”way more fun”. the KZ would soil your undies.

http://greenflag.net/gfk_products/tut_intro.php

This way more manual than Honda offers. And it will work for most KZ’s

[Chris Reinhardt]

 

<div class=”d4p-bbp-quote-title”>Thomas Barth wrote:</div>
Chris, Yes, stick to Honda…”way more fun”. the KZ would soil your undies. http://greenflag.net/gfk_products/tut_intro.php This way more manual than Honda offers. And it will work for most KZ’s

So Tom, you’re not the factory right?  So anything posted that’s not directly from the factory is hearsay…  Maybe it’s right, but how does somebody verify it?

Good to see somebody put something together, the factory is pitiful for not creating a service manual.  Hardly a service manual though, but better than nothing…  Now maybe I can tell people where to go!!!!

Soil my undies?  Only after I see an invoice for KZ a rebuild!!! :)

CR

Chris Reinhardt

CR2 Motorsports

http://www.cr2motorsports.webs.com/

XV Racing Products

http://www.xvengineering.com/

­­

[Thomas Barth]

Chris,

 

You’re hung up on the manual. 

I have a parts source, parts list, homologation sheet and motor skills (pardon the pun) that’s all I need.

 

[Chris Reinhardt]

Tom, that’s awesome!!!  Like I said, to spend that kind of money on the the top of the food chain, and rely on word of mouth, or somebody’s “experience” for information is not only hearsay, it’s pretty damn pitiful.  Before I even buy a motor, I research the FACTORY documentation…  I would expect that kind of treatment from a Chinese manufacturer, but from the Italian’s, I would expect better…

 

CR

Chris Reinhardt

CR2 Motorsports

http://www.cr2motorsports.webs.com/

XV Racing Products

http://www.xvengineering.com/

­­

[Thomas Barth]

Chris,

If you need a manual maybe you should keep your hands off.

The mechanic needs a parts list showing only the data needed to replace parts.

Please tell me what you think the mechanic needs to do the above.

[Chris Reinhardt]

Assembly reference is not why it’s pitiful that the KZ’s don’t have a manual, although, that would be a pretty good reason on it’s own.  Again, for the 50th time, it all the specifications and clearances that are completely hearsay, that’s the issue.

Talk all the BS you want, post whatever numbers, specs, drawings, pictures, whatever, unless the factory prints something, it’s all hearsay, it’s also different depending on who you talk to.  That’s point I was making when you made a comment about somebody else posting info about a KZ, we beat it to death, I’m done….

CR

Chris Reinhardt

CR2 Motorsports

http://www.cr2motorsports.webs.com/

XV Racing Products

http://www.xvengineering.com/

­­

[Jeff Metter]

Tom i sent you a message about 4 days ago about a K9C on a Zanardi chassis check the classisfieds…

[Brian Degulis]

If you don’t see the value of a good complete service manual YOU SHOULD KEEP YOUR HANDS OFF

Brian

[Paul Makarucha]

<div class=”d4p-bbp-quote-title”>Chris Reinhardt wrote:</div>

Bernard Muminovic wrote:

Chris Reinhardt

Uhh, not for nothing but I was doing 36.3s here on a completely green track (rained the day before), first time in a kart I’d never driven, on totally trashed SKUSA MGs and… IN A STOCK HONDA…

I don’t have a dog in this fight as I like my KZ and SH equally for different reasons, but I’m just not sure what the point trying to be proven here was.

[Thomas Barth]

Chris,

You don’t read so well.

http://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0042/0102/files/KZ10_homologation.pdf?1285605011

There is also the parts list from the factory including part number, part description and illustration. If that isn’t enough the web is loaded with technical data relating to all KZ engines

Besides we’re comparing apples to oranges. A kart engine vs a motorcycle engine. Take your Honda manual to a dirt bike site, maybe someone there will be interested.

[Chris Reinhardt]

Tom, really dude, let it rest….  You don’t get it….  I’m getting tired of telling you the same thing……  At this point, I’m not sure if you need to stop drinking, or start?  :)

Where’s the tolerance for all the moving parts????????  I’ll give you a hint… There ain’t none!!!  I don’t believe ANY of the KZ manufactures print that information…..  Shhhhh it’s a secret…… I guess all the little pictures are the same thing? :)

Paul, read the WHOLE quote, I did say play riding……

CR

Chris Reinhardt

CR2 Motorsports

http://www.cr2motorsports.webs.com/

XV Racing Products

http://www.xvengineering.com/

­­

[James McMahon]

The pair of you need to drop it already.

Manuals are always handy to have, but if one always went with only the “Factory” manual on a lot of things motoring related we’d be pretty screwed. Bentley and Haynes come to mind.

Chris your argument is equally weak when it comes to tolerances unless the manual you are talking about refers to a cr125 running an R4 or SK-1 pipe, 38mm carb (pumparound, magic can or GFS), bolted on a kart running on asphalt getting the absolute piss revved out of it 30+ times a lap. Yeah, its neat to have when you need to assemble it, no doubt but it’s hardly the mecca of information that you claim it is.

I’m pretty sure the CR125 manual you hold in such high regard was written (or approved, whatever) by Honda with no consideration for use in a shifter kart application.

By your own logic, we should be looking for a manual from Honda or HPD that is specific to a CR125 “Stock Moto” in a kart racing application. If you have one, post a link, otherwise drop it.

Homologation sheets are not a replacement for a manual, however Tom does have some good guides on his website that apply to most ICC\KZ motors. Pretty sure there’s a few videos out there on youtube too.

 

P.S. We all get you are a badass driver and motor builder.

[Howie Idelson]

This is funny. An argument about Kart racing motors by two guys who don’t race

[Chris Reinhardt]

<div class=”d4p-bbp-quote-title”>Howie Idelson wrote:</div>
This is funny. An argument about Kart racing motors by two guys who don’t race

I guess I’m just a ghost… http://www.mylaps.com/en/classification/2794671

 

Chris Reinhardt

CR2 Motorsports

http://www.cr2motorsports.webs.com/

XV Racing Products

http://www.xvengineering.com/

­­

[James McMahon]

Your 250ICE time was just about 2.4 seconds faster than a 125 Stock Honda over a two minute lap?!? Same track at the same time. I assume you were breaking in?

[Chris Reinhardt]

Yes, and everybody but Metter and Wilhelm were also….  smart ass…

CR

Chris Reinhardt

CR2 Motorsports

http://www.cr2motorsports.webs.com/

XV Racing Products

http://www.xvengineering.com/

­­

[Thomas Barth]

Howie said:

This is funny. An argument about Kart racing motors by two guys who don’t race

Howie, I think I was driving full size race cars before you were born.

[Bernard Muminovic]

<div class=”d4p-bbp-quote-title”>Chris Reinhardt wrote:</div>
Tom, really dude, let it rest…. You don’t get it…. I’m getting tired of telling you the same thing…… At this point, I’m not sure if you need to stop drinking, or start? Where’s the tolerance for all the moving parts???????? I’ll give you a hint… There ain’t none!!! I don’t believe ANY of the KZ manufactures print that information….. Shhhhh it’s a secret…… I guess all the little pictures are the same thing? Paul, read the WHOLE quote, I did say play riding…… CR

Hey Chris,

Go to: http://www.mylaps.com/en/classification/2473988

Here’s a little motivation when you want to get serious :)

[Chris Reinhardt]

Hey Bernard,  next time I have a set of fresh tires, a chassis dialed in,  and I get brain damaged enough to want to race in a parking lot again, we can talk more.

In the mean time, you should find out what Alex did, you got SMOKED!!!!  :)

 

CR

Chris Reinhardt

CR2 Motorsports

http://www.cr2motorsports.webs.com/

XV Racing Products

http://www.xvengineering.com/

­­

[Bernard Muminovic]

<div class=”d4p-bbp-quote-title”>Chris Reinhardt wrote:</div>
Hey Bernard, next time I have a set of fresh tires, a chassis dialed in, and I get brain damaged enough to want to race in a parking lot again, we can talk more. In the mean time, you should find out what Alex did, you got SMOKED!!!! CR

Chris,

Parking lot? Didn’t you race at the same place? Last time I ran a 38 sec lap time at that place was when I had a flat tire.

Yeap I got smoked :)

 

 

[Chris Reinhardt]

Bernie, like I explained the first time, I went out to do some testing, there happen to be a race that day, I had to enter to practice.  I ran all the practice session, and the qualifier, put it on the pole, ahead of ALL the ICC’s running that day.   I had fun, I sorted some things out, yes it wasn’t a record setting lap, but it fast enough for a pole that day, I’ll take it.

And again, if I went out there to actually race, I would had a decent set of tires instead the billion heat cycle balling balls I had, and I would adjusted on the chassis instead of working on the motor…

Sprint race=Parking lot, get it?  I road race, you probably wouldn’t catch me on anything much less than about 1.2 miles….  but you never know, I’ve done 32 flat’s on the old OVRP, look that one up….

Maybe Alex will give you some lessons? :)

CR

Chris Reinhardt

CR2 Motorsports

http://www.cr2motorsports.webs.com/

XV Racing Products

http://www.xvengineering.com/

­­

[Bernard Muminovic]

You’re funny guy Chris.

See you around :)

[Chris Reinhardt]

I wasn’t joking,  0.7 seconds difference in a sprint race is huge, I don’t think it’s that much for the top 5 in Stock Honda road race….

Maybe I’ll see you at Summit this weekend?  Oh that’s right Howie says I don’t race…. :)

CR

Chris Reinhardt

CR2 Motorsports

http://www.cr2motorsports.webs.com/

XV Racing Products

http://www.xvengineering.com/

­­

[Author]

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