Home Forums Shifter Karts OMG! 55Hp KZ motor with Fuel Injection and Fly by Wire!

This topic contains 49 replies, has 17 voices, and was last updated by  mal crosher 3 months, 3 weeks ago.

Viewing 25 posts - 1 through 25 (of 50 total)
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  • #20270

    Chris Hutchinson
    Participant
    #20294

    Alan Sheidler
    Participant

    So, will there be a class emerge which allows FI?  I’m not up on the latest rules in the EU, but AFAIK, the classes are divided in part by carburetion.  Here in the US, I’m not aware of any sanctioning organization which allows FI.

    #20374

    Bill Schmidt
    Participant

    So, is this new engine a 6 speed shifter in 125cc size?

    #20451

    Chris Reinhardt
    Participant

    So, is this new engine a 6 speed shifter in 125cc size?

    Bill by definition a “KZ” motor is a max 125cc, max 6 speed…

    BTW, 56hp sounds like a pretty good stretch, maybe on the dyno for a few seconds before it goes BOOM!!!

    CR

    #20520

    mark crook
    Participant

    I can understand how emissions and efficiency can be improved massively with this technology but I’m struggling to understand how output can be improved to such a degree over a properly jetted carb. Maybe 5/10% but 20% ?????

    Maybe where the maps can be programmed a lot more effectively with fly by wire EFi you can just peak every last bit of performance out of the top end to give good readings on a dyno.

    Anyway, it would be lovely to see two stroke GP bikes hitting the track again one day :)

    #20568

    Christiaan Bouhuys
    Participant

    The key here is that is makes 55hp with a 38mm carb. The best KZ’s with normal 30mm carbs make close to 50hp so 10% gain by going to 38mm and EFI is not that much of a big step up

    #20577

    Todd Kageals
    Participant

    Uhhh….what does one of these cost?

    #20580

    Carl Beavers
    Participant

    Looks like a very sweet package.

    If the demand were there maybe a direct injected two stroke in the future. The direct injected two stroke outboards and snowmobile engines form Rotax are simply amazing.

    #20584

    Chris Reinhardt
    Participant

    The key here is that is makes 55hp with a 38mm carb. The best KZ’s with normal 30mm carbs make close to 50hp so 10% gain by going to 38mm and EFI is not that much of a big step up

    Even “IF” a legal KZ made 50hp, which is a stretch, 10% above that would be huge…  And even if they added nitro and had secret dyno room, 100ft below sea level to make 55hp, it would be a light switch power band….

    #20675

    James McMahon
    Participant

    55HP? Not buying it.
    No way it’s making a legitimate 55HP in any way that’s useful or reliable on the track. TBH I think the 50HP number thrown around for KZ motors is a trophy pull anyway. With a 30mm carb, compression and exhaust timing limits I’m doubtful.
    <span style=”line-height: 1.5em;”>One thing to add…if you think EFI on a  racing two stroke means the end of motor </span>carburetor<span style=”line-height: 1.5em;”> tuning you are going to be very disappointed. It depends on the exact EFI you are looking at, and how its implemented, but on any kind of racing application it’s not going to be balls to the wall AND autotuning at the same time.</span>

    #21584

    Riley Will
    Participant

    Fellas, it is totally possible.  EFI is being developed by many at the moment. BRC has our own.  We use a 43mm slide throttle body that we designed.  EFI only gets difficult on the 2-stroke when you try to tune the EFI like a 4T…

    The HP Modena is quoting is achievable.

    If you want to see an early BRC EFI test, go here:

    http://youtu.be/Kfx61bUOznc

    #22139

    MikeGoebel
    Participant

    Are you sure that Dyno’s properly calibrated 73 HP at approx. 14K RPM is over a 50% increase in HP over a “tuned” KZ. DOH!!!!

    Have you track tested it yet.  Looks like it would be fun as hell.  BTW is that on petrol or alcohol?

    Later

    Mike G.

    #22154

    Riley Will
    Participant

    Mike, you were watching the speed in mph not hp. I didn’t do a hp pull, was just showing it running and the rpm range.  That package was running gas and a KF style of exhaust.  Makes ~45 hp in that config.

    #22162

    Chris Reinhardt
    Participant

    Mike, you were watching the speed in mph not hp. I didn’t do a hp pull, was just showing it running and the rpm range. That package was running gas and a KF style of exhaust. Makes ~45 hp in that config.<br>

    Exactly, 45hp, not 55hp.
    45hp for a 125, is pretty much maxed out. If and when you could get 1hp more over that, would be a quantum leap. To get 10hp more than that, would be monumental if at all possible. Couple that with drivability, and it may not even be justified if it were possible…

    But it makes for a good story…

    CR

    #22196

    Christiaan Bouhuys
    Participant

    http://www.elsberg-tuning.dk/engineering.html

    http://www.fasterandfaster.net/2007/06/ktm-vs-suzuki-125cc-gp-racer-vs-1000cc.html

     

    And many more google search resuls on ‘max hp 125cc motorcycle GP’

    This was 2007, 55hp with 125cc w/carburetor. We are 7 more years of development ahead and with EFI this looks totally possible.

    Also there was a topic 1-2 years back about TecSav putting out 50hp with their KZ engines under KZ rules (30mm carb).

    This forum seems to be a place where whatever you say people will argue with you just for arguing sake. The 55hp was not ‘made up’ by a EKN user, it was from a press article in a karting magazine.

    Now let the flaming and arguing begin (again) :P

    #22199

    Chris Reinhardt
    Participant

    I don’t think anybody said it was a made up number….  And if they already had a 55hp KZ, why would EFI be such a big deal?  The point is, for a person that builds motors and understands what it would take to get 55hp, and what you would end up with, it’s not realistic…

    Google is a great tool, but you have to be able to decipher what’s real, and what’s not

    #22203

    Riley Will
    Participant

    Chris,

     

    Since that video I posted showing our EFI running, we have seen as much as 53HP.  Modena’s claim of 55HP is entirely plausable.  The interesting observation we are seeing is that even while making this much HP, the internals of the engine are actually showing less stress and evidence of superior lubrication.

    I can post a dyno curve if required, but from what we are seeing, EFI is great and looks to be possible in the very near future.

    #22220

    Chris Reinhardt
    Participant

    Chris, Since that video I posted showing our EFI running, we have seen as much as 53HP. Modena’s claim of 55HP is entirely plausable. The interesting observation we are seeing is that even while making this much HP, the internals of the engine are actually showing less stress and evidence of superior lubrication. I can post a dyno curve if required, but from what we are seeing, EFI is great and looks to be possible in the very near future.

    I’ll have to agree to disagree with you about the numbers, but I do agree EFI is the way to go, my newest superkart is going to be an EFI….

     

    #22243

    Howie Idelson
    Participant

     

    Chris,

    Look up numbers for 125 Gp bikes. They made 55 HP with carbs. Why would 55 HP on an injected ICC be not in your realm of belief?

    #22249

    Chris Reinhardt
    Participant

    #1 Howie, if 55hp 125 was the norm in GP racing, then an EFI KZ making that would be no big whoop…. What I have taken out of the original story is that the 55hp mark in a KZ is and would be huge.

    #2 Running a narrow powerband 125 two wheeler around a track, although not easy, the poweband is less of an issue because with that type of bike you carry speed through the corners.
    In a kart on a tight sprint track, it would be difficult to keep it in the powerband…

    CR

    #22259

    Christiaan Bouhuys
    Participant

    CR:

    #1 now contradicting yourself? earlier you said it was not possible and now it is and now your argument (for arguing’s sake) becomes ‘so why is it special’? Dude…

    <span style=”line-height: 1.5em;”>#2 I think that’s the key. Using a karting engine with stock exhaust which is designed for a broad and driveable powerband. Having that engine make 55hp (vs. close to 50 with carb) is an achievement.  </span>

    #22260

    Chris Reinhardt
    Participant

    CR: #1 now contradicting yourself? earlier you said it was not possible and now it is and now your argument (for arguing’s sake) becomes ‘so why is it special’? Dude… <span style=”line-height: 1.5em;”>#2 I think that’s the key. Using a karting engine with stock exhaust which is designed for a broad and driveable powerband. Having that engine make 55hp (vs. close to 50 with carb) is an achievement. </span>

    if 55hp 125 was the norm”

    Put on your glasses and read it again…  :)

     

    #22263

    Christiaan Bouhuys
    Participant

    I read that. My point is valid with the ‘if’. No glasses needed.

    #22269

    Chris Reinhardt
    Participant

    I read that. My point is valid

     

    Glad you think so….. :)

    #22282

    James McMahon
    Participant

    Theres a big difference between what was allowed for a GP125 and what is currently allowed for KZ. I think its misleading to follow the peak HP numbers too much. Thats without even talking about the difference between a kart and motorcycle application

    KZ restrictions….. (numbers may not be 100% accurate)
    Exhaust port timing 190Deg max
    Venturi size 30mm max
    Inlet type reed only
    Head volume cannot be under 11.5cc
    Analogic ignition only (so no CDI and no programmable curves),
    No Powervalves.

    A driveable 50HP under these conditions seems optimistic to me, regardless of who claims it. The 53HP quote from Jan Thiel I’ve been trying to find the source for because its without context about what configuration was and under what circumstances. I would hazard a guess that this motor may not fair to great on a kart, but I could be wrong.

    If Riley thinks 55HP is possible then I have some faith, but I can’t see it being done with existing KZ specs. 125open now that’s another matter.

    How did the RS’ fair back in promoto days?

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