Home Forums Shifter Karts OMG! 55Hp KZ motor with Fuel Injection and Fly by Wire!

This topic contains 49 replies, has 17 voices, and was last updated by  mal crosher 4 years, 2 months ago.

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  • #20270

    Chris Hutchinson
    Participant
  • #20294

    Alan Sheidler
    Participant

    So, will there be a class emerge which allows FI?  I’m not up on the latest rules in the EU, but AFAIK, the classes are divided in part by carburetion.  Here in the US, I’m not aware of any sanctioning organization which allows FI.

  • #20374

    Bill Schmidt
    Participant

    So, is this new engine a 6 speed shifter in 125cc size?

  • #20520

    mark crook
    Participant

    I can understand how emissions and efficiency can be improved massively with this technology but I’m struggling to understand how output can be improved to such a degree over a properly jetted carb. Maybe 5/10% but 20% ?????

    Maybe where the maps can be programmed a lot more effectively with fly by wire EFi you can just peak every last bit of performance out of the top end to give good readings on a dyno.

    Anyway, it would be lovely to see two stroke GP bikes hitting the track again one day :)

    "When In Doubt, Flat Out" - Colin McRae

  • #20568

    Christiaan Bouhuys
    Participant

    The key here is that is makes 55hp with a 38mm carb. The best KZ’s with normal 30mm carbs make close to 50hp so 10% gain by going to 38mm and EFI is not that much of a big step up

  • #20577

    Todd Kageals
    Participant

    Uhhh….what does one of these cost?

  • #20580

    Carl Beavers
    Participant

    Looks like a very sweet package.

    If the demand were there maybe a direct injected two stroke in the future. The direct injected two stroke outboards and snowmobile engines form Rotax are simply amazing.

  • #20584

    Chris Reinhardt
    Participant

    The key here is that is makes 55hp with a 38mm carb. The best KZ’s with normal 30mm carbs make close to 50hp so 10% gain by going to 38mm and EFI is not that much of a big step up

    Even “IF” a legal KZ made 50hp, which is a stretch, 10% above that would be huge…  And even if they added nitro and had secret dyno room, 100ft below sea level to make 55hp, it would be a light switch power band….

    Chris Reinhardt

    CR2 Motorsports

    http://www.cr2motorsports.webs.com/

    XV Racing Products

    http://www.xvengineering.com/

    ­­

  • #20675

    James McMahon
    Participant

    55HP? Not buying it.
    No way it’s making a legitimate 55HP in any way that’s useful or reliable on the track. TBH I think the 50HP number thrown around for KZ motors is a trophy pull anyway. With a 30mm carb, compression and exhaust timing limits I’m doubtful.
    <span style=”line-height: 1.5em;”>One thing to add…if you think EFI on a  racing two stroke means the end of motor </span>carburetor<span style=”line-height: 1.5em;”> tuning you are going to be very disappointed. It depends on the exact EFI you are looking at, and how its implemented, but on any kind of racing application it’s not going to be balls to the wall AND autotuning at the same time.</span>

  • #21584

    Riley Will
    Participant

    Fellas, it is totally possible.  EFI is being developed by many at the moment. BRC has our own.  We use a 43mm slide throttle body that we designed.  EFI only gets difficult on the 2-stroke when you try to tune the EFI like a 4T…

    The HP Modena is quoting is achievable.

    If you want to see an early BRC EFI test, go here:

    http://youtu.be/Kfx61bUOznc

  • #22139

    MikeGoebel
    Participant

    Are you sure that Dyno’s properly calibrated 73 HP at approx. 14K RPM is over a 50% increase in HP over a “tuned” KZ. DOH!!!!

    Have you track tested it yet.  Looks like it would be fun as hell.  BTW is that on petrol or alcohol?

    Later

    Mike G.

  • #22154

    Riley Will
    Participant

    Mike, you were watching the speed in mph not hp. I didn’t do a hp pull, was just showing it running and the rpm range.  That package was running gas and a KF style of exhaust.  Makes ~45 hp in that config.

  • #22162

    Chris Reinhardt
    Participant

    Mike, you were watching the speed in mph not hp. I didn’t do a hp pull, was just showing it running and the rpm range. That package was running gas and a KF style of exhaust. Makes ~45 hp in that config.<br>

    Exactly, 45hp, not 55hp.
    45hp for a 125, is pretty much maxed out. If and when you could get 1hp more over that, would be a quantum leap. To get 10hp more than that, would be monumental if at all possible. Couple that with drivability, and it may not even be justified if it were possible…

    But it makes for a good story…

    CR

    Chris Reinhardt

    CR2 Motorsports

    http://www.cr2motorsports.webs.com/

    XV Racing Products

    http://www.xvengineering.com/

    ­­

  • #22196

    Christiaan Bouhuys
    Participant

    http://www.elsberg-tuning.dk/engineering.html

    http://www.fasterandfaster.net/2007/06/ktm-vs-suzuki-125cc-gp-racer-vs-1000cc.html

     

    And many more google search resuls on ‘max hp 125cc motorcycle GP’

    This was 2007, 55hp with 125cc w/carburetor. We are 7 more years of development ahead and with EFI this looks totally possible.

    Also there was a topic 1-2 years back about TecSav putting out 50hp with their KZ engines under KZ rules (30mm carb).

    This forum seems to be a place where whatever you say people will argue with you just for arguing sake. The 55hp was not ‘made up’ by a EKN user, it was from a press article in a karting magazine.

    Now let the flaming and arguing begin (again) :P

    • #22199

      Chris Reinhardt
      Participant

      I don’t think anybody said it was a made up number….  And if they already had a 55hp KZ, why would EFI be such a big deal?  The point is, for a person that builds motors and understands what it would take to get 55hp, and what you would end up with, it’s not realistic…

      Google is a great tool, but you have to be able to decipher what’s real, and what’s not

      Chris Reinhardt

      CR2 Motorsports

      http://www.cr2motorsports.webs.com/

      XV Racing Products

      http://www.xvengineering.com/

      ­­

  • #22203

    Riley Will
    Participant

    Chris,

     

    Since that video I posted showing our EFI running, we have seen as much as 53HP.  Modena’s claim of 55HP is entirely plausable.  The interesting observation we are seeing is that even while making this much HP, the internals of the engine are actually showing less stress and evidence of superior lubrication.

    I can post a dyno curve if required, but from what we are seeing, EFI is great and looks to be possible in the very near future.

  • #22220

    Chris Reinhardt
    Participant

    Chris, Since that video I posted showing our EFI running, we have seen as much as 53HP. Modena’s claim of 55HP is entirely plausable. The interesting observation we are seeing is that even while making this much HP, the internals of the engine are actually showing less stress and evidence of superior lubrication. I can post a dyno curve if required, but from what we are seeing, EFI is great and looks to be possible in the very near future.

    I’ll have to agree to disagree with you about the numbers, but I do agree EFI is the way to go, my newest superkart is going to be an EFI….

     

    Chris Reinhardt

    CR2 Motorsports

    http://www.cr2motorsports.webs.com/

    XV Racing Products

    http://www.xvengineering.com/

    ­­

  • #22243

    Howie Idelson
    Participant

     

    Chris,

    Look up numbers for 125 Gp bikes. They made 55 HP with carbs. Why would 55 HP on an injected ICC be not in your realm of belief?

  • #22249

    Chris Reinhardt
    Participant

    #1 Howie, if 55hp 125 was the norm in GP racing, then an EFI KZ making that would be no big whoop…. What I have taken out of the original story is that the 55hp mark in a KZ is and would be huge.

    #2 Running a narrow powerband 125 two wheeler around a track, although not easy, the poweband is less of an issue because with that type of bike you carry speed through the corners.
    In a kart on a tight sprint track, it would be difficult to keep it in the powerband…

    CR

    Chris Reinhardt

    CR2 Motorsports

    http://www.cr2motorsports.webs.com/

    XV Racing Products

    http://www.xvengineering.com/

    ­­

  • #22259

    Christiaan Bouhuys
    Participant

    CR:

    #1 now contradicting yourself? earlier you said it was not possible and now it is and now your argument (for arguing’s sake) becomes ‘so why is it special’? Dude…

    <span style=”line-height: 1.5em;”>#2 I think that’s the key. Using a karting engine with stock exhaust which is designed for a broad and driveable powerband. Having that engine make 55hp (vs. close to 50 with carb) is an achievement.  </span>

  • #22260

    Chris Reinhardt
    Participant

    CR: #1 now contradicting yourself? earlier you said it was not possible and now it is and now your argument (for arguing’s sake) becomes ‘so why is it special’? Dude… <span style=”line-height: 1.5em;”>#2 I think that’s the key. Using a karting engine with stock exhaust which is designed for a broad and driveable powerband. Having that engine make 55hp (vs. close to 50 with carb) is an achievement. </span>

    if 55hp 125 was the norm”

    Put on your glasses and read it again…  :)

     

    Chris Reinhardt

    CR2 Motorsports

    http://www.cr2motorsports.webs.com/

    XV Racing Products

    http://www.xvengineering.com/

    ­­

  • #22263

    Christiaan Bouhuys
    Participant

    I read that. My point is valid with the ‘if’. No glasses needed.

  • #22269

    Chris Reinhardt
    Participant

    I read that. My point is valid

     

    Glad you think so….. :)

    Chris Reinhardt

    CR2 Motorsports

    http://www.cr2motorsports.webs.com/

    XV Racing Products

    http://www.xvengineering.com/

    ­­

  • #22282

    James McMahon
    Participant

    Theres a big difference between what was allowed for a GP125 and what is currently allowed for KZ. I think its misleading to follow the peak HP numbers too much. Thats without even talking about the difference between a kart and motorcycle application

    KZ restrictions….. (numbers may not be 100% accurate)
    Exhaust port timing 190Deg max
    Venturi size 30mm max
    Inlet type reed only
    Head volume cannot be under 11.5cc
    Analogic ignition only (so no CDI and no programmable curves),
    No Powervalves.

    A driveable 50HP under these conditions seems optimistic to me, regardless of who claims it. The 53HP quote from Jan Thiel I’ve been trying to find the source for because its without context about what configuration was and under what circumstances. I would hazard a guess that this motor may not fair to great on a kart, but I could be wrong.

    If Riley thinks 55HP is possible then I have some faith, but I can’t see it being done with existing KZ specs. 125open now that’s another matter.

    How did the RS’ fair back in promoto days?

  • #22295

    MikeGoebel
    Participant

    We found that on a 1999 Trans Am engine that there was essentially no difference in peak HP reading but that drivability and fuel economy were better on the EFI engine.

    Mike G.

     

    • #22302

      Chris Reinhardt
      Participant

      Mike, the EFI motor also had programmable ignition as well as fuel management I would assume?

      I personally think those KZ numbers are inflated just because of the flat ignition curves. You could tune the ignition for peak power, it would either grenade or be a toad under that….

      55hp seems like a big number, unless your racing dynos….

      CR

      Chris Reinhardt

      CR2 Motorsports

      http://www.cr2motorsports.webs.com/

      XV Racing Products

      http://www.xvengineering.com/

      ­­

  • #22311

    Sam Zavaglia
    Participant

    I read the press link and this post but I can’t see anywhere about the quoted power being at the crank, output sprocket or rear wheels.

    The debate is totally pointless unless we know this.

  • #22342

    Greg Lindahl
    Participant

    Gents;

    Read and study Race Engine Technology and other engine technology books and you’ll know that 55 HP with modern EFI, coatings, combustion knowledge, fuels/oils is entirely possible. 

    Opinion is worth $0.00.  (:-)

  • #22351

    Keith Bridgeman
    Participant

    At the very tip of the best Mod motos of the day back in 00-02 I never really heard a true HP number but I bet it was around 45-48 max. Those motors where as open as you could get.

    http://bridgemanbroskarting.blogspot.com/

  • #23957

    Dan Davis
    Participant

    I see it has the $60 spark plug boot…..and the $45 spark plug beneath it no doubt.  Awesome! ;-)

  • #26299

    Keith Bridgeman
    Participant

    Then you must have it,  share it!

    http://bridgemanbroskarting.blogspot.com/

  • #26307

    mal crosher
    Participant

    Keith , Chris,
    Your talking mod moto with 48hp in 2002.

    Ever get trackside at motogp in last days of the 125Gp class like fast open flowing Phillip Isle gp circuit ? Because comparing a motox transplant that is restricted by it’s design ( ie engine tightly cradled , usable power to ground ,suspension must colapse clean all around pipe etc)
    to a factory european completely open un resticted gp engine developed week in week out against just as equal competition is only worth a HP or 2 ? Seriously .

  • #26327

    Chris Reinhardt
    Participant

    Mal, the only restriction “by design” on a moto-x motor is the intake track is turned to ovoid the rear shock.  That was eliminated with the cut cases and straight intake boots.

    The later RS’s design benefits from a balance shaft, and programmable ignition that’s where a lot of hidden power comes from, and from what I see with respect to the KZ’s, that’s not allowed, and or implemented…

    And again….  If you could have 75hp in a KZ package that would great, but they are designed to run around a 1/2 sprint track, so they have to be drivable also…  That’s kind of what happen to 2 stroke MX bikes, they make more power for the size, but the 4 strokes have a better power band, which equals faster laps, which equals wins…

    CR

    Chris Reinhardt

    CR2 Motorsports

    http://www.cr2motorsports.webs.com/

    XV Racing Products

    http://www.xvengineering.com/

    ­­

  • #26329

    mal crosher
    Participant

    Chris,
    No if mx 125 wasn’t restricted on exhaust port angle etc you wouldn’t have exhuast/power valve that’s needed for mx but pointless in a kart as per kz. ( hence the 250f)

    Do you remember what brands ran & won last few years of 125gp ? wasn’t honda aprillia etc it was derbi , italjet and ktm etc.

  • #26362

    Chris Reinhardt
    Participant

    They ran power valves on the 250 GP bikes, same cylinders as the 125’s.  They made more than 2x the power of the 125’s….

    The only limiting factor with respect to the exhaust port is how wide you can make it before the ring falls in and the piston chews up…

    BTW the 125’s got a 7 kilo weight break also…

    CR

     

     

     

     

     

     

    go

    Chris Reinhardt

    CR2 Motorsports

    http://www.cr2motorsports.webs.com/

    XV Racing Products

    http://www.xvengineering.com/

    ­­

  • #26371

    mal crosher
    Participant

    Chris,
    I don’t know how many 125/250 gp bikes front ends are sorted to max out on a big set of doubles but i’d imagine it’s of no real concern .

    Anyone who knows how to build half decent 125mx pipe knows the front wheel distance with forks collapsed is the biggest limiting factor.

  • #26405

    mal crosher
    Participant

    Chris,
    Ok . simply put. No point building the fastest 125 pipe if you mash it on the ground or with the front wheel after your first big suspension hit is there ?

    That was always the issue with any 125mx pipe building. again , not something gp or kz developers need to even consider .

  • #26431

    mal crosher
    Participant

    What am i dealing with here ?

    that pic you.posted , ktm ? Notice how pipe doesn’t hang below frame/engine/shock linkage ?

    Why is that you think ? Just so happens that way ?

    I know your pro moto but seriously come on man !

  • #26495

    mal crosher
    Participant

    Chris,
    Lol. thank god old 125motogp teams didn’t go to you to win world titles hey ?

    ” Just put a cr125 in , straight cut intake boot is the game changer and with the pipe ? Make sure it looks good first please ” you’d say ?

    I’m outta here. lol. It’s been fun.

  • #26499

    Chris Reinhardt
    Participant

    I’m outta here. lol. It’s been fun.

     

    That’s the most sense you’ve made so far….  Thank God!!!!

    CR

    Chris Reinhardt

    CR2 Motorsports

    http://www.cr2motorsports.webs.com/

    XV Racing Products

    http://www.xvengineering.com/

    ­­

  • #26639

    Chris Reinhardt
    Participant

    Mal, Don’t take it personal. CR just loves an argument and you just can’t win as he has way more time on his hands to browse these forums than anyone else and he is willing to engage in endless rebuttals without much regard for factual accuracy or consistency of position (anything to win an argument). It’s a pity some people are here just to get their personal satisfaction of being an online forum bully instead of having an open-minded conversation and trying to help other people. -CB

    I thought we were having a great discussion????  He started out talking about GP road racing at Phillip Island, then he switch to GP MX, said the moto engines were restricted because of power valves,  then switch to exhaust pipe angle restricted them, talked about front suspensions???  I just don’t agree that turning the cylinder 180* and straightening the exhaust port, gives you 10hp on a 125, that’s A LOT of HP!!!!

    It is what it is, unless somebody has one to run, it’s all bench racing…..  Sorry if I offended you, relax and enjoy the banter…

    CR

    Chris Reinhardt

    CR2 Motorsports

    http://www.cr2motorsports.webs.com/

    XV Racing Products

    http://www.xvengineering.com/

    ­­

  • #26642

    mal crosher
    Participant

    I never said 180 switch on top end did that ?

    This going to hurt Chris , but ICC cases were used well in 125gp classes and what you seen and heard in video above was well claimed by many of a factory team around the paddocks in last few years of 125motogp. In fact that set up in video is pretty much what they were doing.

    Now is useable in short sprint karting ? Probably not , is it possible ? The above mentioned figures have already been claimed well before elsewhere.

  • #26644

    mal crosher
    Participant

    Actually Chris I was going to mention how demise of 125gp racing left all these Italian engine manufacturers really only have one avenue to put all previous 125gp technology etc into kz karting only and all .

    But i honestly don’t think your ready for it.

  • #20451

    Chris Reinhardt
    Participant

    So, is this new engine a 6 speed shifter in 125cc size?

    Bill by definition a “KZ” motor is a max 125cc, max 6 speed…

    BTW, 56hp sounds like a pretty good stretch, maybe on the dyno for a few seconds before it goes BOOM!!!

    CR

    Chris Reinhardt

    CR2 Motorsports

    http://www.cr2motorsports.webs.com/

    XV Racing Products

    http://www.xvengineering.com/

    ­­

  • #22353

    Chris Reinhardt
    Participant

    At the very tip of the best Mod motos of the day back in 00-02 I never really heard a true HP number but I bet it was around 45-48 max. Those motors where as open as you could get.

    And they were grenades!!!!  That’s one reason I said that 50hp, would be a stretch with a KZ, and “IF” 55hp was possible in a KZ EFI, that would be huge at the beginning of this thread…

    Chris Reinhardt

    CR2 Motorsports

    http://www.cr2motorsports.webs.com/

    XV Racing Products

    http://www.xvengineering.com/

    ­­

  • #26288

    Howie Idelson
    Participant

    At the very tip of the best Mod motos of the day back in 00-02 I never really heard a true HP number but I bet it was around 45-48 max.</span>

    Suggest you get better info.

  • #26411

    Chris Reinhardt
    Participant

    I don’t know why this is going in this direction, but I’ll set you straight… Pun Intended….

    There was a little invention back in 70’s called a High Pipe, they haven’t mashed a pipe since…..

    Chris Reinhardt

    CR2 Motorsports

    http://www.cr2motorsports.webs.com/

    XV Racing Products

    http://www.xvengineering.com/

    ­­

  • #26458

    Chris Reinhardt
    Participant

    What am i dealing with here ? that pic you.posted , ktm ? Notice how pipe doesn’t hang below frame/engine/shock linkage ? Why is that you think ? Just so happens that way ? I know your pro moto but seriously come on man !

     

    I trying to figure out WTF you’re talking about!!!

    “Ok . simply put. No point building the fastest 125 pipe if you mash it on the ground or with the front wheel after your first big suspension hit is there ?”

    I raced motocross for 10 years, I never bent or saw anybody bend a pipe from a front wheel hitting it?????  Or from “mashing it on the ground”????  Bent in a crash, dented from roost, absolutely….

    And what does any of this have to do with karts Mal????

    Getting back to my point, 55hp “IF” and a big “IF” were possible in a 125 kart motor, it would great on a dyno, but try and drive it on a 1/2 mile sprint track….

    Chris Reinhardt

    CR2 Motorsports

    http://www.cr2motorsports.webs.com/

    XV Racing Products

    http://www.xvengineering.com/

    ­­

  • #26525

    Christiaan Bouhuys
    Participant

    Mal,

    Don’t take it personal. CR just loves an argument and you just can’t win as he has way more time on his hands to browse these forums than anyone else and he is willing to engage in endless rebuttals without much regard for factual accuracy or consistency of position (anything to win an argument).

    It’s a pity some people are here just to get their personal satisfaction of being an online forum bully instead of having an open-minded conversation and trying to help other people.

    -CB

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