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This topic contains 44 replies, has 24 voices, and was last updated by  Cris Schureman 2 years, 8 months ago.

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  • #39937

    marty casey
    Participant
    #39939

    marty casey
    Participant

    Two Big races about the same time in Vegas which one will everyone want to go to?? one on the strip and one off, one you can walk to hotel and all the excitement and one you can’t and one a lot less money to go to. This will be something to think about
    Good job Maxspeed

    #39953

    Keith Bridgeman
    Participant

    Seriously!   Lets just copy the other series using Rotax.   Lets even add stock moto with the same type of classes.  Lets have the same amount of rounds and end in Vegas before the SKUSA Vegas.   Its so Blatant is comical.

     

    http://bridgemanbroskarting.blogspot.com/

    #39959

    Dan Schlosser
    Participant

    I can almost see Vortex or even Briggs partnering up in this but i don’t really get another Stock Honda program. At least with Vortex you’d pull in the interest of the Mini-Rok families that had their rug pulled out from under them. Maybe.

     

    #39966

    Greg Wright
    Participant

    Kind of reminds me of the now defunct CKI doing something similar ending inVegas. History repeating itself?

    Greg Wright
    Rapid Racing Inc.

    "When in doubt Gas it, It won't help but it ends the suspense."

    #39967

    Dave Hosie
    Participant

    How can these guys in any way say that they are doing this in the interest of the sport!

    Business competition is fine but to put this back to back with the SKUSA SuperNats is declaring a blatant war on SKUSA using the customers as the weapon! To attend both events will require drivers to spend 1-1/2 weeks in Vegas, a cost and time away from work or school few of us can afford.

    Half of Rotax and half of SKUSA tag run both classes, this basically forces the customers to make a choice between the two series. The result will be a split and diminished numbers no matter what happens!

    It’s going to be an interesting year.

    #39970

    Keith Bridgeman
    Participant

    Max Speed is using SKUSA’s stock moto rule book also.    Or better yet.   Take away the 01 cylinder and make all go back to the 99 and do up a special pipe with the stamp “Max Speed” on it.   Also they can make there own tire brand to.    Lets do this right huh!!!

     

    All the major teams will be in Vegas for a week and half.  Just think of the cost!

    Dave!  I’ve never thought of that.  What if Rotax did do a true 6speed KZ style shifter engine.  I wonder what,, if any the impact would be.   It would for sure look like a turd but who knows.

     

    http://bridgemanbroskarting.blogspot.com/

    #39977

    Cris Schureman
    Participant

    Reading the list of people/companies involved in the planning process (all have supported SKUSA), one could conclude they were looking to do something different (not happy with the Pro Tour) or add races to what they are already supporting. It does not appear to be “one guy” that put this together.

    If you want to bang gears at a national level in the US, Stock Honda is where the numbers are.  Attempting to start a new series that includes shifter karts and using a different motor (KZ, ROK, X30) would not get you the numbers you need to be successful.  It is all about kart count and when you have 1000 guys with stock moto engines that are paid for, only a fool and his money would start a series using something else. Having the same basic class structure is logical and SKUSA does not have exclusive rights to the use of the motor. TAG USA even has/had their own stock moto rules in their rule book (or they did the last time I saw it). If the new series plagiarizes the SKUSA  rule book that will be a problem.

    I can’t imagine the chaos that will ensue when everyone pulls an all nighter packing up from the new race and attempts to get spotted at the Super Nationals. Grabbing the popcorn for that one.

    Personally I would rather see a KZ program take root in North America using CIK / international rules.  I believe the argument of it being too expensive is lame when you compare what it costs to run stock moto and be competitive at a national level.

    It would be great to hear from some of the people who were part of putting this together.

    #39979

    Keith Bridgeman
    Participant

    Watch out Chris,  if you mention KZ might not be more expensive then Stock Moto in its current state you might get a lot of hate mail.   Lets not cause any trouble:)

    I agree if its try the large teams that are behind Max Speed this could get interesting quick.  Most likely you get two deluted series.

    http://bridgemanbroskarting.blogspot.com/

    #39986

    Cris Schureman
    Participant

    Keith:
    I have historical/factual documentation to prove my point on the cost of KZ.

    As far as the  teams who appear to be supporting this new series-

    The press release shows several teams who are the larger ones that show up at Pro Tour and this did not just happen overnight. When things don’t make sense- follow the money.

    #39988

    Eric Alexander
    Participant

    Devil’s advocate, ok: By running SKUSA class and rules, they’ve just doubled the number of national-level shifter events in the US.  Plus they’ve made use of what is already the biggest kart race in the US to expand and give karters more bang for the buck in Vegas.  I’m sure most national teams appreciate being able to pack-up and go to Vegas and now have two world-class events plus an expo in one trip.

    I understand the immediate concern. MAXSpeed is Rotax in the US and this is the first time they’ve expanded beyond Rotax Max classes at an event.  But If I were running the SKUSA Pro Tour, I’d be pretty excited by this news for expanding my season and investment while at the same time still supporting SKUSA and their full season.

    Also, it does seem funny that we have one thread complaining about manufacturers and promoters doing their own thing when it comes to rules packages (State of Karting in USA), followed by foul calls in this thread when someone adopts the same rules towards two separate organisations. I hope that irony isn’t lost on others. 😉

    Lastly, (and this is kinda completely off-topic), I’ve never understood why any organisation hasn’t carved up the US into regions and divisions.  Then allow things to take root locally –  regionally – and finally holding division championships funneling up into a single National championship race.  Seems MAXSpeed has the ability to do this.  But instead has what is essentially four or five random and disconnected racing series running over the course of a season.  Note I’m not criticizing the current MAXSpeed commitment, just recognizing that no one has managed to bring the county together under one banner/championship in a most efficient way.

    #39990

    Tim Koyen
    Participant

    This is not a big deal.  The market will work out very quickly whether or not this makes sense.  A little competition for karting series is always good.  It makes the programs better and keeps them listening to the racers.

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    #39992

    FREDDY SANDOVAL
    Participant

    This reminds me of CART and IRL, now known as Izod Indy Car Series

    That conflict went on for about 10 to 12 painful days, and it didn’t do the sport any good, by putting both series on a bind, allowing other forms of motorsports to get stronger while the battle went on.

     

    Now Indy car is doing ok, but those cars and their power plants suck! And They’re long and ugly.

    I know this is off topic, as I express my thoughts, but it totally reminds me of that era.

    I hope one or the other will be successful, keeping the consumer and racers in mind, and as the back bone foundation of karting. And PLEASE KEEP THE COST DOWN!!!!!!!!!

    #40028

    Keith Bridgeman
    Participant

    Honestly!   This would have been a 15-20 page thread by now a few years ago.    Where are people going now to share their opinions on what has been a lot of big news in the industry over the last month.

    http://bridgemanbroskarting.blogspot.com/

    #40034

    James McMahon
    Participant

    You could say a lot of it it happening (fragmented as it may be) on facebook, even at that I dont think it lends itself to much deep discussion.

    The other factor I think is that people are desensitized to these changes with so many happening.

    Probably not a bad thing, we need to build our local tracks up.

    Nice pics on the blog BTW 🙂

    #40071

    Alan Michel
    Participant

    looking at the big team names supporting this new series, I would say it was them who pushed it, not the promoter initially.   big teams WANT more races.  more races that drivers CANNOT miss because they are ‘national’ racers.    lets be honest, most drivers(or their parents) that attend the full protour/cota/rotax nationals/etc  HAVE the money to do  it and the TEAMS know it.    I said most, not all.

    I don’t think is bad for karting, it is COMICAL, but not necessarily bad lol.   also it will be good that SKUSA will have to step up their game, serious competition now.

    a true national championship would be amazing.   imagine that only the first 3 to 5 drivers from each club/region could attend the national series?  that would make regional/club karting pretty strong!    but that seems impossible nowdays in karting.

    #40075

    josh martin
    Participant

    I do not think that Eric’s last point was really off topic. For those of us in the middle of the country (we are based in Oklahoma), there are not a lot of nationally recognized race options in which we can participate. Given that two of the three events are under a day’s drive away, this effectively produces a regional series with national exposure for us. Given that they are using SKUSA rules for stock moto, and our goal is to ultimately participate in pro tour events, it allows us a more accessible opportunity to practice our racecraft under the same set of regulations. Seems like a better way to gain experience than driving a thousand miles. Will we participate in the Vegas event? Probably not. Time and money won’t allow both that and Supernats, but it doesn’t mean we won’t support the other two. I am enthusiastic about another series. In response to the concern about the dilution of events, that may happen in Vegas, but with the inclusion of Rotax in the US Open,its more likely that it will simply service a different set of participants. As for the Dallas and Grand Junction events,my bet is that there will be an entire set of participants that no one knew existed but who have been waiting for a taste of higher profile racing closer to home. More accessibility means more participation, and I think that is what we all hope for our sport.

    #40085

    Dave Hosie
    Participant

    Josh I hope you are right, but my fear is that both series are really pulling from the same pool, which will make it very hard for both series to prosper, its more likely that one will struggle / fold. For example, we will be running the SKUSA spring NATS and it is totally impractical to take time off from work / school 2 weeks later to attend another race. I believe a lot of people will be forced to make this same decision for one series or the other, that will effect the revenue for both series.

    Your statement that it effectively produces a regional series with national exposure actually just about sums up most of our National series. Perhaps they should be called RegionNats! The only series that this year is coming close to having a true NATIONAL program is SKUSA with three races across the country. That is what a NATIONAL series is! The TPKS series is what you are describing.

    I don’t see this series as a Stock Moto series with the inclusion of Rotax as you have said but indeed exactly the opposite, a ROTAX Series that has included Stock Moto to try and drive it’s popularity / profits!

    #40087

    Cris Schureman
    Participant

     

    This/ it will dilute the kart count for the Pro Tour. Kind of sad really but the whole thing should not be a surprise. The Pro Tour has been very successful and we have supported it from its (most recent) inception. It has been a hell of a ride for us  but I don’t have a dog in this hunt now as we have no plans to run stock Honda this year. We will support the Super Nationals in KZ.

    The elephant in the room –

    A promoter / series owner (who makes a living doing so) has to operate as a dictator, pure and simple. He cannot make everyone happy. It is not a club or a non-profit organization. It is a business and making a fair profit is the priority.   The definition of fair  is different depending on who you ask- the racers, teams or the series owner.

    After a few years, “customers” start to think they are getting charged too much to race, paying too much for tires, getting raped on pit space fees, the list goes on and on and on. It turns into “the promoter is greedy and does not give a damn about us”. I have heard this crap at the races for the past 2 years, it was amplified this year and got really intense after Modesto.

    This is a quasi revolt pure and simple.

    I wrote in an earlier post that when things don’t make sense- follow the money. My hunch is that the new series is sharing the wealth in some form. Combine that with the fact that the MG importer is on board and now getting a piece of the pie instead of being “gone around”.

    My Opinion-

    No, it is not a coincidence it has the same structure as the Pro Tour. It is a in your face, here it comes-what you going to do about it kind of play.  This is history repeating itself.  Give it a few years and it will happen again.

    Flame suit on

    Cris

     

     

     

    #40099

    Carl Freese
    Participant

    Have they posted any kind of schedule for the events? I can’t seem to see one anywhere that I have looked. It seems pretty ambitious to run 12 run groups to me. Not quite sure how they are going to break up the events? Is it going to be 2 days for each event to be the total of the 4 days that the events are? If someone knows where a schedule is, it would be good to post it for us to see and not speculate.

    I have not been part of any of their other series and have no idea how they run their program which is why I am curious. I have run SKUSA and their timeliness (Except Modesto) has always been pretty good. I know how it is in business, if someone sees you doing well, they come in and try to do what you do to make their own business. I only hope that this doesn’t end diluting the fields with guys that will only run series “X” and not run series “Y” and vice-versa.

    The other thing that has my interest is I have seen it posted multiple times above that the US Open series is running the SKUSA Rule Book for the Stock Moto. I don’t think that is possible unless they are being sanctioned by SKUSA?? As far as I know, you can’t just use a set of rules unless you are associated with that sanctioning body. It would be nice to get some clarification on that as well if anyone has some other information that can help. If it is seen as a “rival” situation, then I wouldn’t think that SKUSA would let them use their rules?? So now what?? Another set of Stock Moto rules to adapt??

    Hopefully some more clarification will be coming and not just an announcement of dates and places. Give us some true information to start making informed decisions and opinions and not just guessing at how this is going to play out.

    My 2.5 cents

    Carl

    #40104

    Tim Koyen
    Participant

    Some people might be shocked to learn that a lot of people weren’t happy with the “status quo” series, yet still complied because it was the only show in town.  The type of chatter has gone on between the shops for awhile now, as they watched their portion of the revenue dwindle.  A new series had a ready-made group of followers just waiting for it to happen.  To me, the most surprising part is that it isn’t Rok Cup based.  I really thought it would be, given the desire by Vortex to be a player again.

    In the East, WKA’s Man Cup series was very sick a couple years ago.  Many shops and racers felt they were being ignored by the organization.  USPKS was born out of that.  USPKS has flourished in its first few years, but WKA hasn’t given up yet.  In fact, they seem to be making an effort to right the ship.  Only time will tell if both series can survive.  Things aren’t quite that bad in the West.  The current market leader is still healthy and doing well, yet there is an underlying tone of unhappiness among some of the customers.  Will this new competition be able to jump right in and be successful because of this?  Again, time will tell.  If not, it is still a wake up call to everyone that no one can be complacent…karting business, otherwise.

    KartLift Kart Stands
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    877-777-8020
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    #40111

    Cris Schureman
    Participant

    Tim:

    I would love to see a real kart engine (ROK or even a KZ) be the motor of choice for a new national series.

    Those “ready-made followers” that you speak of on the shifter kart side all OWN stock motos.

    It all makes sense when you see the names associated with helping put this together. Stock Honda is a big part of their programs.

     

     

    #40118

    William Kinnear
    Participant

    It’s only a matter of time before we need to use KZ  engines for a shifter again, how long are Honda going to support CR 125 3 – 5 years so someone is going to have start KZ shifter class to keep a national shifter class.

    So why do they not start a KZ class and see where it goes also allow people have time to make the shift from stock Honda to KZ we have done them both and costs are very close in running these engines it costs more for travel, entries and tires than the engine maintainence at national level.

     

    William Kinnear

    #40357

    Stacey Cook
    Participant

    Tim is correct this was not a promoter jumping at an opportunity to copy or steal the business model of someone else.

    There were several Teams that have not been happy with the current situation for quite some time now and were so frustrated that they considered starting their own series. However the logical choice was to find someone already in the business who had the ability and infrastructure to promote a first class series, that is when Maxspeed was approached.

    They were asked about including Stock Moto in their program and promote a True National series. They are promoting this new series out of encouragement and support from many Teams, shops and drivers in the industry. SKUSA has done a terrific job in years past but many felt they have lost sight of who their customers are and feel they have taken away every revenue stream possible from dealers and importers.

     

     

     

    #40375

    Cris Schureman
    Participant

    Was hoping to hear from one of the teams involved. Thanks for chiming in Stacey.

    Good Luck to All.

     

     

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