January 28, 2015 at 7:07 am #41227
David ColeKeymasterJanuary 28, 2015 at 7:22 am #41229
For CIK classes, I’m not in favor — KISS unless there’s a verifiable problem.
Unless a proper engineering analysis of the failure modes that led to any accidents in RR is done, knee-jerk responses via the rule book can lead to undue expense and complexity without necessarily fixing the core issue.
Single brakes were good enough for Fomula Super A and Formula K, so I’m inclined to believe they’re adequate for CIK RR. Other classes YMMV.
2014 Praga Dragon / IAME KA-100January 28, 2015 at 8:14 am #41231
It’s a tough topic, and IMHO, I’m surprised at the hard line stance taken by some, in other post and on other sites. It can be as cheap as a $100 or so, and kinda like one of those ” don’t want it till you need it” items. Nothing like running a 100, coming to a tight corner, and the guy behind you loses his brakes! Been there, not pretty. I guess we could say, I’ve been racing for over 30 years, never had the opportunity to use my helmet for an emergency, should we do away with those also?January 28, 2015 at 10:17 am #41239
(Sorry, had deleted my content, but a couple others answered a couple specific points of mine….mainly that I wouldn’t give up my helmet, but wouldn’t wear 2 of them, or maybe we should wear leathers as they’d be safer than nylon in case of ejection — if it’s all about safety…. I commented that we’re personally responsible for having fit equipment for the job, not WKA, or other sanctioning bodies, and that the line for acceptable risk is a subjective one — I’d rather see adequate runoff areas, no concrete walls, etc….. I also commented that FSA or Formula K karts ran fine with single vented brakes, and I didn’t see why that system wouldn’t hold up to 110 mph speeds vs. 90 mph over 14 corners… Hope that clears up any confusion below.)
2014 Praga Dragon / IAME KA-100January 28, 2015 at 10:50 am #41251
To be more specific, it would only be for sprint style karts and NOT laydowns or shifters. Laydown and shifter karts come with or are designed for “four” wheel brakes. It also does NOT require anyone to remove their dual/four wheel brake systems!!
The attempt was being made to help encourage “sprint” racers to give road racing a try without the added expense and work of the dual brake system. In WKA land this proposal would only effect 4 cycle enduro sprint, 2 cycle enduro sprint and CIK Tag classes.
As a member of the WKA NRRC and the WKC board of directors, I’d very much like to know what the rest of the North American clubs and organizations require with respect to road racing sprint kart braking systems.
Your input would certainly be appreciated,
Clark Gaynor Sr.January 28, 2015 at 11:00 am #41252
I would be a person that would crossover into some wka road races if I didn’t have to have front brakes. I ran IKF 15 or so years ago and would cross over from sprint to road race with no front brakes and it was never an issue. It would definitely increase participation.January 28, 2015 at 11:06 am #41257
Ted, I’ll start with saying, I think you would look good in leathers. I wasn’t saying I’m for them, or against them, just saying they are nice to have when you or someone behind you needs them. And cost effective! If we don’t require them, then fine, I’m still racing. Just think they make things a tad safer. If it truly helps get more people to the RR TRACKS, I’m all for it. NOW, as for safer tracks, I’m all for it, but then the cost would be so great, we wouldn’t have any where to go. We have what we have, and as long as we don’t make it any more dangerous, as any racing already is, then efforts need to lean to what will bring more racers to the track. Once again, IMHOJanuary 28, 2015 at 11:06 am #41258
If it’s class that is run typically as a sprint class, then, if the NRRS wants it increase it’s numbers, they should make it an option. That being said, pre-tech that is thorough is essential. I’ve been to NRRS events where the pre-tech has been unsatisfactory, and that can’t happen when brakes are involved.
I don’t know where this $100 figure came up for front brakes.2 rotors, 2 brake rotor hubs, stub axles with caliper mounts, 2 calipers, 2 front wheels hubs, brake lines and a master cylinder. Find all that for $100, and I’ll be impressed. It’s a cost that’s an impediment for sprinters to go road racing.
I’m sorry, I haven’t been racing for 30 years, only 29. There comes a time where the racer has to be accountable for the condition of his/her gear for the safety of that driver and of others. If you’ve no respect for your gear or the speed you’re running, you can have 6 calipers on your kart, and your gear will still fail. In CES, they have front brakes as an option in classes that aren’t exclusively road raced and don’t typically have front brakes, and, because of good pre-tech (at least consistently better than I experienced in NRRS) and respect for the equipment and each other, there has not been a serious injury related to brake failure to my knowledge.
So, if you’re tossing gears or in a lay-down, then keep it manditory. But if you show up in a KPV, no, you shouldn’t.January 28, 2015 at 11:33 am #41277
Thank you gentleman for your input. Please keep them coming.
And thanks you David for starting this thread.
Clark Gaynor Sr.January 28, 2015 at 12:14 pm #41280
Wow Pete, thought this was a discussion, not a crucifixion. Sorry I referred to 30, should of said “a while and still haven’t used my helmet” although I still think it’s a good idea to have! The $100 was for a used second rear caliper and master, sorry again, didn’t know we were talking”frt brakes”. I’ll let you much more knowledgeable people Pete, take over. Sorry for stating my opinions in such an amateurish way.January 28, 2015 at 12:55 pm #41282
Ted, I think the rationale for a secondary system is the sustained high speeds on bigger tracks. On a sprint track in an FSA you are only momentarily near your top speed. At road races you are at sustained higher speeds, sometimes averaging 85mph even in a TAG.
The dual brake requirement that the WKA insists on has always a barrier to entry for traditional sprinters. We already know this.
So the debate moves to safety. Start with good tech on a single system including verifying the backup cable is indeed effective. Without that a good, working, effective tether you can have a triple circuit and still be in deep, deep doo doo.
JMHOJanuary 29, 2015 at 2:10 am #41319
Ric, I wasn’t attempting to make anything personal. After a 14 hour night shift, it’s apparent that I can’t proof-read myself well enough to make sure I don’t sound like a jerk. My apologies.
Most sprinters don’t consider a dual rear brake, as putting a second caliper on the left side often gets in the way of the mount for the torsion bar, and since many don’t have the third bearing tight, placing it there would significantly change the kart’s characteristics. It’s, more often than not, just not a good option.January 29, 2015 at 6:03 am #41323
Not a problem Pete.January 29, 2015 at 9:25 am #41344
IMO as the non-racing put crew, if the WKA is going to error; it needs to be on the side of safety. We were lucky enough to switch from sprint without having to put on front brakes. But it wasn’t long into RR that we had them put on. Maybe only once did the second brake system save my son. The cost was worth it.
I’d have no trouble with experienced r-racers with a single brake system provided that an adequate pre-race inspection was done. A mandatory mechanical log book on the brakes would be good, but don’t see that ever happening. Anyone ever had their rotor pulled and inspected in pre-tech? Probably no one. I’ve pulled rotors and found worn pins or bolts to the carrier or egg-shaped holes in the rotor. And that’s with front brakes.
As for newbies in r-racing, mandatory front brakes. It too easy for an aggressive new comer with no front brakes to chase an experienced driver with fronts way too deep into a corner. You know who’s going to lose in that scenario. Where an experienced RR-driver might be able to save his butt in a case a brake failure, a newbie with a single braking system is not going to have the experience save him/herself and the others around them.
LAD Specialties / tony kart / rotax / kt100January 30, 2015 at 9:27 am #41403
To answer YOUR question. KART rule is that: Recommended for ALL classes (sprint and laydown) up to 100cc stock. Mandatory for A-Limited (Open) and up. This allows the racer from the sprint track to come road race without major changes rather it’s cost or parts. They already have to get different front and possibly rear gears to road race.
As for what opinions people have, that’s fine with me. In my opinion, making a 4-cycle or a Piston Port sprinter rather it’s with CIK or full body work to make dual brakes MANDATORY in road racing, I’m not for that at least at this time.
Here is the TRUTH. The DRIVER/MECHANIC needs to understand the true maintenance on there kart that they are driving or working on!!!! I’ve seen rule after rule written on different things due to this. WE can add millions of things BUT, if WE don’t maintain it, what good is it??? The pre-tech person verifies it’s there, he doesn’t drive it!!!!
I’m not a expert on brakes but one thing I would question is, the size of the rear brake disc. Are we safe on a road race course with the mini lite disc that some racers use??
When we say it is MANDATORY to have dual braking systems, we don’t say anything else. Anyone mention that they have to both work, work fully, etc??? We don’t want to go there in my opinion. There are driver’s out there that run very little front brake bias and are very fast including through turns. All get’s down to the driver!!!! Sure the more braking you can get the deeper you can go BUT, then you need gear to get you going again. To much gear and you loose top end.January 30, 2015 at 9:44 am #41405
Thanks for the info Kelly. How do you folks handle the CIK chassis/Tag karts? Do they require a dual brake system?
I’m trying to get a feel for what the rest of the country requires. It appears all require “four” wheel brakes on shifters and up. It also appears most orgs do not require a dual brakes system on many slower classes, like four cycles, Tags, etc.
Clark Sr.January 30, 2015 at 11:57 am #41411
I personally can’t think of any other type of racing that this is a requirement…January 30, 2015 at 1:07 pm #41433
Our 125 shifters and tags YES. Tag because they are over 100cc.
Not everyone runs a 140 mph kart. LOL
Some of the best drivers in the past had NO 4 wheel brakes at all and were awesome drivers!!! I do AGREE that SOME karts need dual systems but I also see where SOME don’t. It does seem to be more spins, etc with EVERYONE having dual systems them back in the day when only rear brakes was mandatory. Some racers need to learn to DRIVE!! We are not drag racers if you catch my drift!!January 30, 2015 at 7:44 pm #41451
Tony Zambos wrote:
….As for newbies in r-racing, mandatory front brakes. It too easy for an aggressive new comer with no front brakes to chase an experienced driver with fronts way too deep into a corner. You know who’s going to lose in that scenario. Where an experienced RR-driver might be able to save his butt in a case a brake failure, a newbie with a single braking system is not going to have the experience save him/herself and the others around them.
Requiring new road racers to run front/dual brakes, and not experienced RR drivers, defeats the whole purpose and intent of considering “rear brake only O.K.” in the first place.
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