Home Forums Chassis & Handling Driving: Slow in Slow out

This topic contains 85 replies, has 18 voices, and was last updated by  patrick hubbell 7 months, 3 weeks ago.

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  • #14053

    Eric Alexander
    Participant

    So as you hit your braking marks, you brake hard.   As the turn-in begins, you begin to modulate the brake (trail brake).   As you approach the transition between braking and acceleration, you  can modulate the brake to the point of lock-up, which of course causes oversteer.  Simultaneously, apply some throttle which brings the rear back under control.  Using both pedals, you can ride the edge of this – controlling the rotation – until you roll completely off the brakes and roll onto the throttle as normal.

    Now I don’t do this as a rule.  But there are corners in which I do this fairly regularly.  Hairpins for example.  And if making a pass I’m always ready to transition to this technique if needed.

    #14054

    Greg Wright
    Participant

    It appears that the term “threshold braking” is being misused in some of the post in this thread.

    Threshold braking as taught by performance driving schools world wide has nothing to do with “rotating” the kart or car for that matter but merely refers to braking as hard as possible without actually locking up the wheels.

    This entire subject is being highly overthought and overcomplicated. Drive the damned car.

    #14058

    Rob Kozakowski
    Participant

    I’m not sure if this still has anything to do with “slow in/fast out”, but…

    It’s taken us to Page 3, and ignoring everything else, it seems to me that what Paul originally called “magic” can now be summarized as “something between deceleration and acceleration” or a “transition area between deceleration and acceleration”.  I say that in part because I still have no clue what else he’s said!  Sorry Paul, just being honest!

    I’m almost afraid to ask this, but what is that “something”?  Hopefully it doesn’t take us another 2 pages to get there…

    #14059

    Paul Kish
    Participant

    Eric,  Yes I think you are describing entry and exit into the area I’m trying to point out.

    I’d like to say yes, yes and yes.

    What I’m adding to it is once entered, you can use your skill again to slightly accelerate and cover the transition area at a speed slightly above entry.  You can do it because once you’ve entered the area and are no longer decelerating, the slight acceleration will quickly remove some use from the outside front and split it up more evenly between the outside front and rear.  The shift in use of grip will allow for both the slight acceleration and the maintaining of a higher speed, to when you apply normal exit acceleration.  What is key is it provides for the possibility of hitting your exact same marks on exit or even a mark more toward the inside of exit, at a higher speed then if you immediately switched from deceleration to acceleration.  It’s done every race by drivers and I think if you think about the watching of turns you have done in the past, it will click that you have been seeing it all along but not recognizing it.

     

    #14063

    Greg Wright
    Participant

    Throwing hands in the air in dismay!! Oh wait, make that banging head on desktop.

    #14064

    Paul Kish
    Participant

    Rob, does it matter how long it takes to get somewhere on here as long as we get somewhere?

    It’s hard to not sound like I’m arguing with you but I’ll give it a try.

     

    Do you feel there is nothing that can take place between where deceleration entering a corner ends and acceleration from the corner begins?

    I feel there is.

     

    Are you saying to me it’s impossible not go from deceleration to acceleration instantly?

     

    I’ll answer it’s possible to stop decelerating and maintain your speed, until you begin to accelerate.  With that being a possibility, what I’m explaining is you can take the exact same line as if you only maintained your speed after ending deceleration, at a higher speed.  You can do it because even if you entered the turn at maximum grip, once you end deceleration grip is instantly redistributed.  And if you have the driver skill you can take advantage of the instant redistribution of grip to accelerate slightly.  Allowing you to take the same turn, on the same line, with the same exit point,  at a higher speed.

    #14065

    Paul Kish
    Participant

    Greg, … :)  I think Eric see’s it.  Why can’t you and Rob?  … :)

     

    just having fun and trying to get yer head up off the table

     

    I know how hard it is sometimes to see what’s right in front of your face.  I also know how it’s usually just about impossible to see something that’s right in front of MY face. … :)

    please see this as only my dry sense of humor not being able to be confined

     

    #14069

    Greg Wright
    Participant

    Paul, Paul, Paul, I will go along with some of your ramblings when it comes to oval track racing where you are using stagger, wedge (cross), and various and sundry tuning elements when it comes to cornering. However most do not apply in road course (left/right) driving.

    I’m beginning to find it mildly amusing that you are trying to explain the science of driving after reading your own quote below.

    Paul wrote;

    “I don’t race, I just watch and BS. … :(

     

    Please don’t take offense, that’s not my objective at all. However this board is populated with a number of people that are very effective racing drivers and your overcomplicated explanations of your own theory tend to bounce off particularly considering that you don’t race by your own admission.

    #14074

    Rob Kozakowski
    Participant

    Ok, maybe I AM glad I asked the question… I think I’m starting to understand what you’re saying – finally!

    Sorry Paul, but you have a tendency to get side-tracked in a lot of your responses, which makes it hard to understand what you’re trying to say at times, and that’s why we’re on page 3… I’m glad you kept going though because I’m always game to hear more ideas that might help me learn more.

    Anyhow, I’ll agree with a few things you said…

    1) It’s possible to maintain speed after decelerating, up to the point where you accelerate again, being at the limit of grip all the time – that should be obvious.

    2) (SOMETIMES) It’s possible to take the same corner, on the same line, faster by being on the gas earlier because the acceleration forces will transfer weight – this might not be obvious to everyone, although I’d think that most people who have raced for any length of time should recognize this… hence, I’m not sure that it’s really “magic”.

    So why is it only “sometimes”?  Well, (ignoring the driver) things like kart setup, grip in the tires, grip in the track surface, etc., all play a role.

    What happens when you go into a corner, decelerate, apply throttle, and the back end steps out on you?  What happens when the front won’t turn anymore and the kart hasn’t rotated enough to make the corner exit?

    This really has nothing to do with “slow in/fast out” concepts and everything to do with kart setup… which is why I think this has been over-complicated.

    The fastest guys in any form of motorsports have 2 things going for them.  First, they’re talented.  Second, their car / kart is handling well.  The middle of the pack guys are lacking in one of those areas.  The back of the pack is lacking in both those areas or is seriously deficient in one area.

    When you’re busy watching, look for the middle of the pack guys who try to apply the “magic”, but end up with karts that won’t respond to the driver inputs the way they’d like them to.  It’s not just driving skill that allows the “magic” to happen.

    #14078

    Paul Kish
    Participant

    “1) It’s possible to maintain speed after decelerating, up to the point where you accelerate again, being at the limit of grip all the time – that should be obvious.”

     

    The only thing to what I’m presenting is you can not only maintain speed after decelerating, because of the instant redistribution of grip after you end deceleration, you can travel the exact same path at a speed above your end of deceleration speed.

    And to do it, the driver needs to learn how to do it.

     

    #14080

    Rob Kozakowski
    Participant

    Paul, you’re really just stating the obvious…

    I’m going to disagree that “the driver needs to learn how to do it”.

    I actually think most drivers know how to do it. It’s called accelerating.  Or applying throttle. Or getting on the gas. Etc…

    After all, the only possible way to travel faster than your “end of deceleration speed” is to accelerate.

    Personally, I’d change your statement that I quoted above to “you have to have the kart properly setup to do it”.

    How do you go faster on that same line if the kart oversteers or understeers when you accelerate?  You haven’t answered that question and how it applies to the ability to travel the “exact same path at a speed above your end of deceleration speed”…

    #14086

    Rob Kozakowski
    Participant

    In general one of three things can happen when you accelerate…

    1) You continue traveling along the same (ideal) path.  This is what we all hope for.

    2) You get oversteer, the back end starts to come around.  In this case you can either reduce speed to get back on the ideal path or you can correct your steering inputs (counter-steer) to keep on the correct path (although this will result in you slowing down even if your foot is held on the gas because you’ll be scrubbing speed).  The other options involve getting off-line or maybe even spinning the kart.  None of these options are ideal.

    3) You get understeer, and the front end won’t track along the path you want it to.  In this case about all you can do is slow down to get back on the ideal path or induce a whole lot of extra steering input, which will again slow you down because you’ll be scrubbing speed.

    Given this, how is this not an issue of kart setup, instead one of “the driver needs to learn to do it”?

    #14088

    Paul Kish
    Participant

    “How do you go faster on that same line if the kart oversteers or understeers when you accelerate?  You haven’t answered that question and how it applies to the ability to travel the “exact same path at a speed above your end of deceleration speed”…”

     

    That’s the whole point to what I’m explaining, you can’t.  This all depends on circumstances. You can’t be on the gas because you would either be loose or push.  But you can travel an ‘x’ amount of distance at a speed higher then entry.  Entry speed, plus elevated speed through a portion of the turn to the point where you can fully accelerate, can at times be faster then entry speed and then apply as much acceleration as possible to where full acceleration can be applied.  IMHO, over all turn times with the same exit line, will always be better.

     

    You all like math.  I’m saying there are times when you can average a higher speed over a similar but maybe not exact line and have the same exit line, by maintaining a constant speed through a portion of the turn.  You can do it over applying maximum acceleration through the same portion of the turn.  I know you want to say how can entering at one speed and then immediately starting to accelerate ever be slower, then trying to maintain a slightly elevated speed after entry.  It can because acceleration instantly demands a loss of grip at the outside front limiting rate of acceleration while turning.  And if your not on the fine line of maximizing slip ratio, your rate of acceleration is even less.

    Sorry, I’m wandering off again.  I see your points and thoughts now.  I’m incorrect about the possibility I’m trying to show and I guess the only thing left is to say I’m sorry for wasting all your time.  Thanks for the conversation and thanks for showing me the errors of my ways.

     

    paul

     

     

    #14092

    TJ Koyen
    Participant

    There’s no room for “magic” between deceleration and acceleration. You should be on the throttle as soon as you’re done braking in nearly every instance of corner. If you’re coasting, you’re slowing down. If you’re slowing down, you have to add wheel input to tighten the turning radius and maintain the same load on the outside tires. If you start losing load on the outside tires, you’re not only not using all the grip and going as fast as you can through the corner, but you’re allowing the inside rear to set down and you’re going to kill your exit speed two-fold.

    Also note, in sprint karting, you really only turn the wheel for a very short period of time. Just long enough on turn-in to get the inside rear to jack up. From there you should be straightening the wheel to roll off the corner and allow the lift of the inside rear wheel and the “spring” you’ve loaded in the frame to carry the kart off the corner.

    #14094

    Brian Degulis
    Participant

    “Rob, does it matter how long it takes to get somewhere on here as long as we get somewhere?”

    Are you just yanking everyones chain or could you really be this much of a wing nut?

    Brian

    #14095

    Matt Dixon
    Participant

    I envision Broque and Ceaser sitting behind a keyboard giggling. Trolling.

     

    Sorry back to the topic, wait what is it again?

    #14108

    Paul Kish
    Participant

    “I envision Broque and Ceaser sitting behind a keyboard giggling. Trolling.”

     

    And I envision a wet behind the ears kid, with no manners nor proper up bringing.

     

    I’d appreciate ending the name calling now.  If you have something to add to the discussion present it.  I’ve probably been on this board and it’s predecessor since before you were born.

    I suspect my irrational thoughts have even had some input into the way, the front end of the kart you ride today is designed.

    #14110

    Mike Clark
    Participant

    Paul,

    It’s called maintenance throttle.

    You will find you are quick to throw jabs. That is fine, but don’t whine about the push back. It is hard to have things both ways. If I am not mistaken English is not your first language, so that does not help us get what you say.

    Also you never addressed my question about who would be the fastest.

    I have found some of this info to be quite helpful. More so for me coming from a car back ground.

    Thank you all and please continue if you can.

    Mike Clark

    #14111

    Mike Clark
    Participant

    <div class=”d4p-bbp-quote-title”>Awesome post. This is a gem for me being so new to karting. I am at that point where I sort of get how to drive a kart but not 100%. I wish I had read it before ever getting into a kart.</div>
    <div class=”d4p-bbp-quote-title”>TJ Koyen wrote:</div>
    There’s no room for “magic” between deceleration and acceleration. You should be on the throttle as soon as you’re done braking in nearly every instance of corner. If you’re coasting, you’re slowing down. If you’re slowing down, you have to add wheel input to tighten the turning radius and maintain the same load on the outside tires. If you start losing load on the outside tires, you’re not only not using all the grip and going as fast as you can through the corner, but you’re allowing the inside rear to set down and you’re going to kill your exit speed two-fold. Also note, in sprint karting, you really only turn the wheel for a very short period of time. Just long enough on turn-in to get the inside rear to jack up. From there you should be straightening the wheel to roll off the corner and allow the lift of the inside rear wheel and the “spring” you’ve loaded in the frame to carry the kart off the corner.

    <hr />

    <div class=”bbp-reply-signature”>T.J. Koyen
    OKTANE VISUAL – Custom Helmet Paint & Graphic Design
    http://www.oktanevisual.com
    ————————–
    DB Motorsports
    Exprit/Leopard</div>

    #14272

    Brian Degulis
    Participant

    <div class=”d4p-bbp-quote-title”>Paul wrote:</div>“I envision Broque and Ceaser sitting behind a keyboard giggling. Trolling.”

    And I envision a wet behind the ears kid, with no manners nor proper up bringing.

    I’d appreciate ending the name calling now. If you have something to add to the discussion present it. I’ve probably been on this board and it’s predecessor since before you were born.

    I suspect my irrational thoughts have even had some input into the way, the front end of the kart you ride today is designed.<br>
    <hr>
    <div class=”bbp-reply-signature”>Signature</div>

    Your priceless I passed kid long before the Internet or any forum even existed. If you had enough sense to be relevant you’d click on a profile before commenting and if you had proper up bringing and manners you wouldn’t hijack a new comers thread with pages of crap that add up to nothing but an opourtunity for you to hear yourself talk or read your own writing.

    Now I wrote this after I took a dump but before I had my coffee and I didn’t re read it so it might be BLA BLA BLA.

    Brian

    #14281

    Tim Koyen
    Participant

    OMG…

    #14308

    James McMahon
    Participant

    LSD, now available as a Chrome plugin?

    #14316

    Paul Kish
    Participant

    All I can do now to start back in is to say I’m sorry and didn’t mean to offend or criticize others input.

    I think I learned a couple of new lessons on here.  They are only present your own thoughts and only address the questions and comments of the original poster, without any reference to anyone else’s post.  Any time you reference or use anything from anyone else you are running the risk of angering others and are hijacking the thread and taking it in a different direction.

    I will again try to present my observation, without referencing any other poster.  I’m sorry for doing otherwise before.  And I’m sorry it does not accurately address the subject of “Slow in Slow out”, because until this thread I had no knowledge of it.

    ______________________________

    There can be something if needed and if the situation allows for it, between the end of entry deceleration and the beginning of exit acceleration or full acceleration.

    Altering your entry line will alter your exit line.

    Ideally you want to finish the straight at the highest possible speed, brake and enter a turn on a line which will put you on the best exit line. What you do in between is crucial to being able to exit on a specific line at the most advantageous speed.

    Depending on what comes next after exit or during exit be it a racing situation, a straight very short or very long or another turn, you may or may not be at the maximum speed possible to obtain between entry and exit. But you still will want to be able to cover between entry and exit as quickly as possible and be on the best line at exit. The best line may be a line you need to complete a pass, it may be a defensive line or it may be simply the best line to obtain the highest speed until the next turn. What you do and can do between entry and exit is what will put you on the line you need, at the speed you want.

    There is an actual line that can be taken on the track, that can be used between the end of entry and the start of exit, which is not a gradually changing line between where entry deceleration ends and exit acceleration is complete. It can be taken only if the driver deliberately inserts it between the end of deceleration and the beginning of acceleration.

    The end of deceleration and the start of acceleration do not have to be an instant thing. A geometric ’arc’ can be inserted at the end of deceleration and before exit acceleration is started. The obvious way to insert the ’arc’ line is to slightly get on the gas and roll a little at entry speed. The ‘arc’ if planed for by the driver instead of going directly into acceleration, can allow for an even later ending of the entry straight and a change in exit line.

    The rest of the point I’m making is the ’arc’ can be taken at a speed higher then entry speed. When deceleration ends, instantaneously grip is redistributed to the outside tires in a favorable way, where the driver can immediately accelerate. If the driver learns the skill to do it, it will allow for the ‘arc’ to be taken at a speed higher then their speed at the end of entry.

    The potential net advantage is ending the straight later and with the slight increased acceleration through the ‘arc’ to it’s exit point, where full exit acceleration would begin. Because of the later entry and slightly elevated ‘arc’ speed time spent in the corner can be reduced. Because of the ‘arc’ nature of the line added between the end of the later entry and the beginning of exit acceleration, it’s possible to be on a line at exit you could not be on if you began your exit acceleration, immediately after deceleration. I’m trying to show the possibility of a corner line, which intentionally includes an ‘arc’.

    #14319

    TJ Koyen
    Participant

    I’m still not sure I’m fully understanding what you’re saying Paul.

    So you’re saying that after turn-in (some point between turn-in and apex), because of how your traction is redistributed, you can go faster than you can on turn-in? So you’re saying you can speed up after you brake and turn-in? This is obvious. This is acceleration. You keep saying there’s a point in-between decel and accel where you can roll more speed than your entry speed. The only way to roll more speed is to accelerate. You can’t speed up without accelerating. What you’re describing is the acceleration part of the corner. It isn’t a matter of magic happening, it’s good drivers correctly ENTERING a corner so they can get on the gas EARLIER than everyone else and carry more speed off the corner. There isn’t a magical increase in rolling speed.

    You say, “the end of deceleration and the beginning of acceleration do not have to be an instant thing”. But they SHOULD be if you’re charging the corner on the edge or limit. I don’t mean to say that you should just stomp on the throttle, of course you should roll back into the throttle smoothly but firmly.

    I think what we’re getting down to ultimately is that there are some drivers who can just feel where that traction limit is and they are able to time perfectly when to brake, when to release the brake and start rolling back into the throttle, and how to coordinate that with steering input to hover on the knife-edge of ultimate grip. It isn’t magic though. It’s the driver feeling all four corners of the vehicle. I’m not the ultimate driver by any means, but I can totally feel the grip of each tire and how it’s being distributed through the corner. Drivers who give good handling feedback are good at this.

    If you pay attention while driving and practice a lot, eventually you’ll be able to feel the grip levels in the front tires through your hands on the wheel and you’ll be able to feel the grip of the rear tires through your shoulders and back in the seat. You can actually feel the load of the tires gripping through your body and if you’re in tune with your machine, you can maintain a constant load on the kart and tires and keep that load measured through the forces you feel on your body.

    That got a tad spiritual almost… Maybe there is some sort of magic to it. There’s a whole other discussion on being “in the zone” and driving subconsciously. Some of this might fall into that.

    Thanks for making us think Paul. Maybe your point isn’t coming across totally clear and some people have gotten frustrated but it’s good to have a multi-page massive discussion about something nearly intangible now and then. It keeps everyone on their toes.

    #14327

    Greg Wright
    Participant

    Just to throw another wrench into all of this overanalyzing of the art of driving think about this.

    There is more than one way to skin a cat, I’ve witnessed and/or raced with very fast drivers that have totally different approaches. For example Mark Dismore Sr. doesn’t appear to move his hands at all while the late great Dan Wheldon absolutely thrashed the kart around the track. Both styles resulted in competitive lap times.

    Food for thought at least. Certainly an inexact science.

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