Home Forums Chassis & Handling Driving: Slow in Slow out

This topic contains 85 replies, has 18 voices, and was last updated by  patrick hubbell 3 months, 3 weeks ago.

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  • #13659

    Paul Kish
    Participant

    Greg,

     

    Can you help us out or are you just posting a general complaint about it?

    I’ve learned a lot on this thread and I’m grateful for being allowed to input.

    I’ve learned about a ‘slow in slow out’ line.  I’ve learned many try to drive to saved data from GPS info about their on track performance.  And they look at the output and increase or decrease their on track speed per calculations of what is obtainable based on g input.  I’ve been taken back to a paper I’ve been into since it’s inception and I saved it again in a better form, which includes graphics.  I’ve again come to realize all the math and all the books are written based on over all or total grip being assumed, which makes them all generally useless.  And that’s because grip and going fast is a result of individual tires working with the track, not the total.  Sure this thread seemed to be started to discuss ‘slow in fast out’, which is based on total grip.  But on down and recently the thread starter indicated that is not what they were interested in.  I proposed a way to be faster then ‘slow in fast out’.  So far it’s not been shot down or argued against its validity.

    I think it’s a great thread for a beginner.  If they dig into it the thread can be a starting point for concepts and they can less rely on empirical data based on inputs, which are not the reality of how things raced work.  I think it’s been a great thread.

    I disagree with you there is magic.  Magic is a display of things real, but beyond normal understanding.  Do you have anything positive to say or did you get on here just to complain and cause issues.  So far non of us have had any issues with each others posts and are we are trying to understand each other.  I’ll tell you up front again, I really don’t know anything racing related as fact.   Can you help us out?

    edit:

    I just looked at your bio Greg and there was nothing there.  I then went to the corporation indicated in your signature.  WOW, you are someone who knows stuff and can help.

    Can you shoot down my basic complaint about racing math that it’s based on total grip and not how individual tires work?  It’s helpful but I think when it comes to splitting hairs to decide who is first and who will be second, I think it falls short.  I think I now understand Rays original question to be one of how do you go beyond total grip advice.  I see his question now to be, ok I’ve been down the road of all aspects of ‘slow in fast out’ and it’s just not the final answer.

    I’m saying the final answer is using each individual tire as needed at every point on the track, based on available grip, available hp, the need to maintain momentum and racing needs.  I’m sure you have drivers that just seem to do something special in the turns, which it’s hard to put into words.  What I’ve tried to do in this thread is present and try to define one driver skill that creates the little bit extra.

    I’m not saying I’m correct on it.  But I’ve seed it applied out on the track.  I think it’s one of those obvious things which is there but you will not notice it, unless you look for it.

     

    thanks and I hope I did not anger you

     

    paul

    #13663

    TJ Koyen
    Participant

    I think this has been far overcomplicated. Shouldn’t you almost always be on the limit of traction whether it’s braking or steering or acceleration? Using all available grip possible at each second? If you are, it’s physically impossible to go faster. There’s no additional grip available.

    Brake hard and you are using as much traction as possible to slow the kart. As you transition to turn-in and apex, you’re coming off the brakes and applying throttle. The grip is always at it’s peak if you’re driving on the limit, you’re just distributing it to different applications through a corner.

    #13664

    Greg Wright
    Participant

    No Paul, I’m not trying to cause trouble or create issues. My earlier post was just pointing out that turning the art of driving into a mathematical equation is most likely not going to help the beginner just trying to figure it all out.

       I still maintain that there is no magic and we can go down all the friction circles etc. that we want but when it comes down to driving truly fast it becomes much more about heart, desire and soul than it does mathematics.

       Earlier in the thread I posted that I subscribe to and teach the “Cool in, Hot out” method of driving not “Slow in, Fast out”. This method along with an understanding of moving the apex of the corner in regards to your line seems to produce the best results for a developing driver.

       Think about making the apex of your line as far around the corner as possible and then moving the apex back until you start running out of race track on exit. This will produce the desired results.

     

    Greg Wright

    Rapid Racing Inc.

    #13679

    Paul Kish
    Participant

    Thank you Greg,

     

    I see exactly what your showing me.  All good.  I think I’ll stop on this.  The way my mind works I want to just keep bring in more and more variables.   It will really get confusing.

    example:   When you explained about running out of race track on exit, I immediately started to bring into the picture available hp and what kind of hp would be needed, in varying situations.  I assume your doing the same by wondering if were both thinking about yammi can’s or top hp shifters.  But I’d like to invite you to take a second thought about the ability to roll a portion of a turn because of slight hp input at a higher speed then entry.  Think of it as an additional option or tool to have and use when needed, prior to normal exit acceleration.  Just as a maybe an additional possibility.

     

    thanks

     

    paul

    #13681

    Greg Wright
    Participant

    Actually Paul, the method that I described will work regardless of HP, however the apex will not be in the same place.

    #13726

    Paul Kish
    Participant

    Greg Wright wrote:
    Actually Paul, the method that I described will work regardless of HP, however the apex will not be in the same place.

    Greg Wright
    Rapid Racing Inc. “When in doubt Gas it, It won’t help but it ends the suspense!”

    ______________

    DARN GREG WRIGHT… WHY THE HECK DID YOU GO AND DO THAT TO ME … :)  I was trying to get out of here gracefully. … :)
    I was all set to not be back.  Until I set down tonight with a glass of liquid refreshment and fell deep into thought.  Actually it didn’t take all that much thought because I don’t put much thought into anything, anymore or any earlier.

    anyway… I have a problem with zero’ing in on the changing apex depending on available hp.  I stated earlier my mind always sees available hp, available grip, the need to maintain momentum, driver skill and racing needs … in anything racing related.  That’s what makes this stuff so darn hard.

    anyway again… If hp demands you must take a different line and it alters the apex, when ya have less available hp or more… doesn’t it also mean you were NOT running at the limit of grip when you had less hp and you could have been going faster taking a different line at the limit of grip? (I already see a problem with what I wrote, because there is no reason to take the same line as you would with more hp, because you cannot use the additional distance traveled to apply hp)… but I’ll just ignore it… :)

    see how this stuff gets all mixed up but still together so tight everything relates to everything else?  … If you do…  I don’t … :)

    just kidding.  Racing is an art.  It’s something that is beyond normal human comprehension and has to be demonstrated, the same as art in the form of a painting, a sculpture or a composition be it music or pros.

    I’m good at questions, just real darn poor at the answers.

    paul

     

    ________________

     

    edit: after seeing where I had a problem with what I wrote while writing it, I’m going to have to go back and try to understand your last post a little bit better.

     

    thanks again for the conversation and I think Ray, got a lot more then he asked for.  ain’t that what helping each other out is all about?

     

     

    paul

     

    #13742

    Mike Clark
    Participant

    Paul,

    Quick question. Who would be faster David Copperfield, Dave Blaney or Harry Houdini?

    I bet it ain’t David Copperfield.

    At Road Atlanta a fellow student was asking lead instructor Terry Yearwood about if you could figure out the limit of a car, track conditions and all the variables, plug it into a computer program or equation & determine the line you should use in a turn. The answer was: Yes you probably could or you could just drive through it 3 times and be pretty close to where you need to be.

    At a recent track walk a parent who supposedly knew about racing was asking how do you know if you are one the right line or not. Well I don’t know about in a kart but in a car you read the tach at a certain point after the turn and use that as the metric. That is what I do in a kart if I can, but I don’t know any better yet. The hard part right now for me is to be able to make observations and remember and utilize the info in an environment that can be overwhelming.

    I always try to figure the fastest line and then think about alternate lines. Being on line was also touted as the first priority in a car. If I am fast on line then you have to be faster and be off line at some point to pass me. Often we see passes that are made but sacrifice enough speed so that driver is immediately re passed.

    Also some of the illustration of line a academic and pertain to cars. IE it is to convey a concept not be taken as ‘the line’. I have done some mid range rifle shooting and some of the bullet drop graphs remind me of the path a car takes coming off of a straight and into a turn. One thing I have felt is how much you have to add throttle to equalize the energy the tires take working hard in a corner. This was in a formula car.

    I have also noticed how much the tires on a kart scrub off speed when you lose control.

    You are really only dealing with contacts patches, slip angle and percent slip as nothing else touches the ground.

    Keep in mind I am pretty new to karting.

    #13761

    Paul Kish
    Participant

    Edit up front:  I’m posting this without proof reading it.  There’s no way I want to wade though all the bull and confusion I just wrote. … :)

     

    And unless I have a reason to, I’m not going to read it later either.

     

     

    Good morning,

    Just had my coffee and without trying to just argue but giving reasons, I think my first feelings about the apex moving ‘only’ because of a hp change were correct.

    I long ago gave up trying to remember everything.  When we got into kart racing we assumed it was not in our nature to take notes.  We never kept any notes except for a gear chart.  My son and I decided we would have to somehow learn what was needed to be done to fix the multitude of situations we would come into both on and off the track.   That’s not the quickest way to gain the skills needed to be fast.  Just on a side note being fast is relevant to the situation your in and nothing else.  Along the lines of the effort it takes to keep notes, there is the effort it takes to figure stuff out.  I long ago went through the I have to know all the numbers stage and found you only need to know an approximation of what is needed or have a correct direction to go.  I also long ago learned on here(the old on here) from Al Nunley about the importance of theory.  It’s not so much that a particular theory is important, it’s about having a direction to go in specific situations to get to a conclusion, weather it’s right or wrong.  With theory if you get to the wrong conclusion you can per what I learned from Al, go back and alter your theory.  With numbers if you get to an answer which does not fit the situation, there’s nothing to go back and change, you must create a new problem.  When racing we already have enough problems to deal with, without having to intentionally create new ones.

    Mike, the first thing which shows up to me reading your post is I see conflict in your mind.  The conflict is because your still looking for specific answers and there are none in racing, only results.  And the only result even remotely acceptable to a racer is winning.

    Here’s the conflict I see.  You presented a story from Road Atlanta where instructor Terry Yearwood was presented a question about the input needed to find specific answers.  Instead of getting into and discussing the value of data and being result orientated on the track, he answered with, “Yes you probably could or you could just drive through it 3 times and be pretty close to where you need to be.”.  You cannot go out and find the correct line and you cannot come in and calculate the correct line.  You must look for it, find it and have the skills to realize you found it, never forgetting it can change or a new line will emerge.   Those were the thoughts on one side of your head when you started into your reply.

    The other side of your mind is still looking for specific items to hook onto.  With racing you can’t have it both ways.  There is no way to look at anything racing, you can only observe it and do it.  It’s no different then only being able to paint or look at a fine painting.  I think I got lost in the shuffle of writing and wandering off half way through in a different direction again.  Racing is so complex that specific facts cannot be combined to get an answer, which can be proven by a path of facts, to the answer.  I didn’t even understand the last sentence.

    All that to say I 100% agree with your post.  And I’m only suggesting to be careful about facts because they can be all consuming.

     

    on to screwing up trying to reply to Greg too.

     

    Greg I think I’m correct about if the only change made was a change in hp and it demanded the apex be moved, the lower hp kart was not operating at it’s potential to apply hp.

    I have a general rule number one.  Actually I have many rule number one’s.  Rule number one is:  You never increase distance through a turn, unless you either have the hp to take advantage of the increased distance or if the increased distance will allow you to get an advantage from maintained momentum.

    If higher hp allows the kart to move the apex and gain speed, it can only be done if there was grip already available.  If the grip was there for the lower hp kart and the lower hp kart did not also move the apex out, it assumes two things.  The first is the lower hp kart did not have enough hp available to take advantage of the grip it already had and it assumes the lower hp kart was taking the turn below its level of available grip.  I assume anytime you have more grip then you can use, the excessive grip is eating into hp.  While writing the last sentence I automatically started as usual to pick apart what I was writing, as I always do.  It’s a plague.  My thought while writing was so what if you have extra grip available, it doesn’t mean you are using the extra grip.  My answer to myself was your racing on tires and it all boils down to tires and using each tire to do a specific job in the most efficient way.  Your only options for gaining grip with any tire are to either use more tire or to use a tire with more stick.  It doesn’t matter if you had more tire or stick, you will still be escessively eating hp and momentum with the lower hp kart and not be able to be running it at it’s limit.

    Well as usual while writing the last sentence I started to bring more variables into it and question what I was presenting.  There is something which would allow the higher hp kart to be able to use the same tires which allow the lower hp kart to run at it’s limit of grip.  The thing or things are forces out on the track.  If the higher hp kart was able to take advantage of aero forces, then it could in deed go faster with the same tires that limit the grip of the lower hp kart.  In fact when a track slows down, the first thing you might think about even before gearing is how the reduction of forces out on the track will effect the speed at which the chassis is able to operate.  With a kart though gearing would be the first thing to deal with.

    I don’t know if I made a case for showing that if hp was the only change made and it allowed for a different and more advantageous apex over the lower hp kart, the lower hp kart had to have been running below it’s available grip.  And then there’s the so what if it is, about the argument I’m making.

    Oh well either way, I enjoy writing and just got two hours of enjoyment out of this.  I guess I should quit for now and go get something productive done today.

     

    paul

     

    and thanks for the conversation

    #13763

    Paul Kish
    Participant

    Well I did sit back down, have my second cup of coffee today and read through what I just wrote.

     

    This is a first.  I read through it and made not a one change to it.  I didn’t even add a comma or correct a word.  Maybe I’m getting better at this writing stuff.

    And it all made perfect sense to me.  That alone throws doubt on the whole reply.

     

    paul

    #13784

    Rob Kozakowski
    Participant

    Paul, I don’t know you, but I really like your persistence to want to learn and share your thoughts!

    (I think) I’m going to disagree with your thoughts on differing amounts of hp, and how they might impact your line / apex points / grip levels / etc.  That said, I’m still a little unsure of what exactly it is you’re saying, so maybe we do agree???

    The first and most important thing to understand is that in racing, we can rarely look at a single corner “in a vacuum”.  We almost always have to look at a series of corners (or potentially at the track as a whole) and how the choices we make in one corner will impact the next one, and the next one, etc.  As a result of this, we often have to compromise something in at least one of those corners to get the lowest combined time through the entire series of corners.  What good is it for me to fly around the first corner, only to completely miss the next one?

    If you had a track where each and every corner was connected to the next by a long straight, then and only then could you look at each corner “in a vacuum”.

    The next thing to understand is where you are most likely to see varying lines, apex points, etc. in order to achieve a fast lap time, is probably in a series of corners taken by karts of differing hp / speeds.

    I’ll share an example from experience.  My club’s track has one series of corners that demonstrates this well.  This series of corners features a 90-degree left hander, followed almost immediately by about a 45-degree right hander.  These are 2 very critical turns.  They lead to a short straight followed by a fairly wide 180-degree turn.  If you screw up or get the first 2 corners right, you can lose or gain lots of time, and it makes the entry to the 3rd corner a good passing zone.

    In a slower 4-stroke, you do not need to lift / brake for this section.  This makes it a true “momentum” section for the 4-strokes, where scrubbing any amount of speed will hurt you.  Therefore, the goal is to “round” off the first corner and make it as much of a constant radius turn as you possibly can.  You then “round” off the second corner as well, and that’s that.  Simple to explain, but the ability to execute separates the fast guys from the slow.

    In a Rotax, etc., you absolutely have to reduce speed for the first corner, because if you don’t, you will run off the track on the exit and have no chance of making the next corner.  So, the question becomes, do I only reduce my speed through the first corner enough to be fast through the first corner, or do I reduce my speed through the first corner enough to be fast through the series of 2 corners?

    I’ll tell you that a lot of the guys with average to slower lap times are amongst the fastest guys through the first corner of this section.  The guys with the faster lap times are some of the slowest through the first corner of this section.

    The guys who take the first corner faster tend to approach it like a 4-stroke would, and try to “round” it off and make it a constant-radius corner.  The trouble is by doing this, they are having to lift / brake to make the second corner.

    The guys who take the first corner slower, approach the corner almost exactly as shown in Eric’s graphical illustration on the previous page, with a later apex.  How do I know it’s slower?  Because when I’m qualifying and I’m behind the slower guys entering this section, they gap me around the first corner.  So why would the faster guys do this?  Because it allows us to not lift around the more important second corner, at which point we drive past the other guys with ease who are lifting (or at the very least not on the throttle hard) at a point where we’re hard on the throttle.

    Now onto where (I think) I disagree with you about grip levels…

    If I understand your logic correctly, you’re basically saying that if one guy’s cornering slower than the other, it means he’s not using all of his available grip, so he’s going slower than he could.

    One thing to remember is that a tire has grip available to do one of or a combination of 3 things – cornering, braking, and accelerating.

    So just because you might be cornering slower than someone else, doesn’t necessarily mean that you’re not at the maximum level of grip available to you.  Maybe you’re just using that grip for a different purpose than the other guy.

    In my example above, the slow guy (who’s fast around the first corner) is dedicating almost all of his grip to cornering through the first and the second corner.  Sure he was fast around the first corner, but by doing so, he was then forced to use all his grip for cornering in the second corner as well.

    The fast guy (who’s slow around the first corner) is using his grip to brake, then make a harder initial turn in (the harder you turn, the more grip is used), but then he’s using his grip to accelerate before he’s even hit his late apex mark, which is much earlier than the guy who’s still using his grip for cornering.  The REAL fast guys do this same thing with great handling karts.

    That’s not how every corner should be taken, but in my opinion, this series of corners provides a great example of where you would want to apply the idea of “slower in = faster out”.  Notice I didn’t say “slow in”.

    I’m with the others – there’s no magic to any of it, and I do agree with others that you’re probably over-thinking / analyzing / complicating it.  Hopefully this helps you understand a bit better what I think the rest of us are trying to tell you.

    #13813

    Paul Kish
    Participant

    edit up front again:  I wrote this late after coming in from the track.  I’ll probably not read through it to edit or check it out until Saturday AM.   Not being a moderator on here I probably won’t be able to edit it after a set amount of time goes by.  So tomorrow if I have to edit it I’ll probably have to re-post it in an edited form.  I think and write pretty much ok anymore so it might just be ok anyway.  But for tonight, it is what it is.

     

    Rob, I understood what you wrote.

    “If you had a track where each and every corner was connected to the next by a long straight, then and only then could you look at each corner “in a vacuum”.”

    Most every track I’ve seen this year is exactly as you described in what I quoted. … :)

    We almost 100% now run LTO(left turn only) and a straight does indeed follow every turn, if you include both turns at each end as one.

    But I do understand what you wrote.  We started out sprint racing boxstock briggs flathead and to this day have a track record in Senior Medium.  (the track is no longer in use)

    Let me try to un complicated it.  To be fast in at your two turn left then right portion of the track, I think your saying there is a speed you can take the first turn which is slower then what is possible, which puts you on an exit line to take the second turn more efficiently then if you took the first turn with a “HIGHER” entry speed AND a “HIGHER” speed through the turn.

    I deliberately related a higher turn speed to a “HIGHER” entry speed because you associated braking with over all turn speed.  I think the result of the higher turn speed in the first turn is it mandates the exit line from the first turn to the second, will cause you to be too slow through the second turn.  now that was truly complicated. … :)

    Let me put some constraints on limit of grip.  Limit of grip is not just associated with speed.  It’s also associated with g’s or how tight you need to take the turn to put yourself on the line through the turn you want to be on.  You can enter a turn sharply at a relatively slow speed and be beyond the limit of grip.  Or you might enter a turn not so sharply at a relatively fast speed and not be beyond the limit of grip.  So, I guess we must put the limit of grip or be at the limit of grip, when entering a turn with the ability to put yourself on the line that you want.  In your scenario I will assume we are entering the turn at a speed which puts you >at the limit of grip< and you will be able to negotiate the turn at a 4cycle speed, which will put you on a line at exit that will allow for maximum speed through the second turn.  Right now you have the best of all known worlds.  You were fast to the first turn, you used your brakes enough so that you could take the first turn at the speed a 4cycle would flat out.

    ?   did I get the last sentence right ?

    Ok it’s all good through the first turn.  Or is it good enough?

    What I’m proposing is you can do exactly what you need to do as in the last sentence and still get through the constant arc turn faster.  What the point to my whole input in this thread is, is that your grip is limited on entry by your ability to turn. … I think I have that correct.

    Your ability to turn is specifically limited by the capability of your outside front tire.  It nets out to you can’t enter the turn any faster then your “outside front tire will allow you to do”.

    Do I have that correct?   If I don’t then there is no need for me to go on because everything from this point on will be false.

    so I’ll stop here, at least for now.

     

    paul

     

    before I leave, if your reading on here Mike… how’d I do reading your mind? … :)

     

    paul

    #13834

    Mike Clark
    Participant

    Paul,

    I am not conflicted.  You seems to be very good at over complicating things. You entirely missed the point. Sorry if I kept it too simple and gave you the gist of a conversation the happened over 20 years ago or 4 months ago.

    Sorry,

    Mike Clark

    #13835

    Matt Dixon
    Participant

    For the record

    …and I am not going to edit this

    I have never used a math formula to find a way to go through a corner, but math is cool.

    Paul you should play with data sometime, it will keep you thinking.

    #13839

    TJ Koyen
    Participant

    I think this has been far overcomplicated. Shouldn’t you almost always be on the limit of traction whether it’s braking or steering or acceleration? Using all available grip possible at each second? If you are, it’s physically impossible to go faster. There’s no additional grip available.

    Brake hard and you are using as much traction as possible to slow the kart. As you transition to turn-in and apex, you’re coming off the brakes and applying throttle. The grip is always at it’s peak if you’re driving on the limit, you’re just distributing it to different applications through a corner.

    -ahem-

    #13985

    Paul Kish
    Participant

    I think it’s more complicated then just addressing over all grip.

     

    Each tire has a function and ability which changes at different places around the track. It’s easy and basic to only deal with total kart grip. Total kart grip is not what defines the slow from the quick. The use and function of each tire at each place around the track is what defines the slow from the quick.  Total kart grip is only useful to find a baseline.

    Is the statement below true?

    Turn entry speed is limited by the grip of the outside front tire. Yes the inside front tire provides grip, but if your on the limit and loose grip at the outside front your done anyway.

     

     

     

    #14020

    TJ Koyen
    Participant

    That’s what I’m saying though; if you’re using all the grip available, regardless of which tire you’re leaning on the most, you physically cannot corner any faster. After that it’s just distributing the grip through the tires in the proper order to achieve the desired apex and exit speed.

    #14031

    Brian Degulis
    Participant

    One thing I rarely hear talked about is how to accelerate. Beginners tend to stomp on the throttle at the apex. All carbureted engines will accelerate faster with a more gradual opening of the throttle the slower the speed at the apex the more gradual it should be. Slamming the throttle open lifts the metering rod from the main jet making more fuel available the problem is that it also lowers the vacuum which makes it impossible to pull the fuel in until the RPM comes up. When it’s extreme you feel the engine bog but it still may be happening even though you don’t feel it. Lowering the connection point of the throttle on the pedal and putting it closer to the pedal pivot point gives the pedal more throw and makes it easier to control the throttle. This works great with some beginners.

    Brian

    #14034

    Ray Lovestead
    Participant

    I’d like to throw a monkey wrench of a question into this.  What does ‘rotation’ have to do with this.  By rotation I mean using threshold braking to rotate the kart into the turn.  Seems to me this greatly affects the karts ability to grip through the corner with ALL four tires.

    Ray

    #14038

    Eric Alexander
    Participant

    Interesting addition Ray.

    Of course I think on the outset one must define threshold braking to clarify the difference to trail braking.

    For me trail braking is the classic Skip Barber technique of trailing off the brakes gradually as turn-in begins.  This technique allows the driver to brake deeper into a corner and carry braking through the turn-in phase.

    Threshold braking (I assume – I don’t use that term… although its a good as any to label the technique) is the use of throttle underneath braking to (1) control rotation more aggressively, and (2) keep the engine revs up at the point of transferring off of braking onto throttle.

    Good topic, but I’ll hold off opinion until after we confirm this is what we’re discussing. ;-)

    #14041

    Rob Kozakowski
    Participant

    Paul, if you really want to read about theory on the outside front, go to the eknclassic forums and search “John vs Bill”.  It’s a technical discussion from about 10 years ago.  While it’s impossible to “simplify” the discussion, one observation that John Learmouth makes is that the outside front does not have to be significantly loaded to make a kart corner quickly.

    That particular discussion is more to do with the conceptual approach to kart setup from 2 slightly differing schools of thought.

    But if you search anything by John Learmouth, you’ll see he keeps coming back to the same theory.

    I’ll warn you, it’s some “heavy” reading…

    #14046

    Paul Kish
    Participant

    Again, I’m writing while having my first coffee, posting this without first reading though it and now heading off to get that other much needed second cup. … :)

     

    TJ wrote:

    “That’s what I’m saying though; if you’re using all the grip available, regardless of which tire you’re leaning on the most, you physically cannot corner any faster. After that it’s just distributing the grip through the tires in the proper order to achieve the desired apex and exit speed.”

    Thank you.  I think you sparked something which is taking others towards what I’m still trying to point out.  It’s about there is something between deceleration and acceleration.  All drivers to be fast must learn special skills to deal with what I like to call the transition from deceleration to acceleration.  I mostly watch LTO(left turn only) and it originally and reciently within a few years of today showed itself to me LTO racing.  It’s something I’ve been watching forever, but never saw it.  When recognized it instantly took a lot of the mystery of why some are just faster then others.  I understand heart and put your all into it.  I assume and think all racers out on the track are doing just that.  I also believe any racer out on the track who is not and who’s sole purpose out there is to win no matter what their chances of winning, has no business on the track.  But that’s for another thread and moving towards the discussion would just be hijacking this thread.

    Back to the discussion.  There is something between ‘Threshold Braking” and “Trail Braking”.  How much is there in-between is no different then before and after.  How much opportunity is there depends on circumstances and what the track at that point has to offer.  In LTO racing since it shows itself with a brighter brush, it is often referred to as rolling the corner.  Depending on track conditions, available hp, racing needs, etc., it may me momentary or it may appear to extend through most of the corner.  I think I am the first person to try to define it specifically and to present a reason why it can occur, even at a higher speed then entry.  I think were talking about something you have never read about before this thread.

    To further understand what I reluctantly will call rolling the corner and discussions coming from it about different ways you can roll a corner, Ray brought up ‘rotation’ and I think we need to understand rotation.  I have come to define in my mind ‘rotation’ in two ways.  You can rotate through a corner, meaning to go through a corner on a curved line.  What your racing also has the ability to cause itself to interact with the track via it’s tires, in addition to traveling on a curved line along the track.  It can also make effort to rotate the outside toward the front and inside toward the rear or nose toward the inside and rear toward the outside.  The end result will be the whole kart rotating through the turn in a specific direction, because of its efforts to rotate as I described in the previous sentence.

    That means when I speak of the ability of a kart to rotate, I’m speaking of it’s ability via the tires to cause it to want to twist towards the inside while negotiating the turn.  What your doing when you setup a kart and while driving is to make individual tires. combined to work toward a goal where kart rotation causes the kart to be able to go where you want it to go.  It is complicated.  There are different way to use your tires to get the same amount of rotation needed, to travel in the direction you want to go.  It becomes even more complicated because there are different ways to use your tires to brake and accelerate in the direction you want to go.  Understanding setup and driving is understanding the different ways you can use your tires to brake and accelerate in the direction you want to go.  That is pretty much all that is dealt with in all the books you will read.  And most all the bookwork you will learn with any race vehicle which turns both left and right bases things on over all grip and the rotation of the whole kart along the intended line.  All that to say, all rotation is not the same and when someone speaks of the kart rotating or a kart rotating, you need to understand the context of the word ‘rotation’.

    After all that I’m going to repeat myself as I often do and say, all of my posting on here so far is trying to show there is something between deceleration and acceleration.  And it’s totally accomplished by driver skill.

    I’m going to end for now I hope with, I’m NOT arguing with anyone and I’m NOT trying to say anyone is wrong.  I think I’m pointing out something which is not normally if ever, talked about on here.  I think it exists, it is seen all the time but never defined and looked at and it is a major driver skill which separates the slow from the fast.  maybe ? … :)

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

    #14047

    Ray Lovestead
    Participant

    Paul I have to be honest – I can’t sort through what you are saying.  I think you use too many words to convey your ideas.  I want to understand what you have to say.  I’m just looking for some economy in your explanations so I can understand it.

    And by ‘threshold’ braking to rotate the kart, I of course mean trail braking deep into the corner to allow the rear to slightly slide.  I find that best setup is one that allows me to steer with my feet.

    Ray

    #14048

    Paul Kish
    Participant

    There is something between deceleration and acceleration.  It can be as little as an extended point between deceleration and acceleration or it can involve the majority of the turn.  It is a transition area between deceleration and acceleration.

    I don’t think it’s ever discussed.

     

     

    #14050

    Eric Alexander
    Participant

    What I sometimes do is use the brake to lock the rear and initiate the rotation (slide, oversteer, etc.) towards the apex while using throttle to stop or control the lock-up.  I think of it like yaw in an airplane – you’re literally controlling the yaw of the kart by balancing the brake and throttle pedals.  Having the throttle applied also raises the revs earlier.

    I find the technique works better in some formulas than others.  Also, you have to be careful not to nullify the braking with the throttle.  Anytime you overlap throttle and brake you’re reducing the braking efficiency.

    Also for the most part, oversteer is generally considered to be slower.  So the technique is best right just before the transition from braking to throttle.    So the rotation is happening right about this transition.  And by rotation, I mean the kart is physically rotating around its center point independent of the line you’re taking.

    #14051

    Ray Lovestead
    Participant

    I’m pretty sure that I try and keep the time between braking and gas to a bare minimum.  It is rare that I don’t have at least a small amount of either, sometimes even both as I transition.  But what are you suggesting is going on in that transition?

    Ray

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